Stieglitz said we should try to turn out beautiful Pictures not Photographs

Bill Burk · Jun 27, 2015

In his 1892 article "A Plea for Art Photography in America", Alfred Stieglitz explained that when compared to English photographers, Americans lack taste and sense for composition and for tone...

and that tone is the dividing line between a photograph and a picture.

The distinction caught my eye because at the same time I picked up an English book, Landscape Photography by Leonard & Marjorie Gayton which repeats the word picture dozens of times in the first chapter ...

I never knew that there was a difference in meaning between the two words. I always worry that I am going to learn something important very late in the game. I seriously doubt that calling them by another name would change the photographs I have taken and the pictures I have printed.

But what if I had this wrong all along? Maybe all I have ever done is take photographs... and I should have been taking pictures instead.

Rick A · Jun 27, 2015

Me thinks you worry too much my friend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mW5_QDkx-k

pdeeh · Jun 27, 2015

and a decade later he was saying things that mostly repudiated that "Pictorialist" stance ... no hobgoblin of foolish consistency for Mr. S

chip j · Jun 27, 2015

Nathan King · Jun 27, 2015

I have read several books on Alfred Stieglitz. He was a very interesting character and never used photograph and picture interchangeably, as you have learned. His sales philosophy at his later gallery (An American Place) was strange, to put it mildly. He was instrumental in the push for photography to be seen as its own unique art form and should be respected for that despite his many peculiarities.

Theo Sulphate · Jun 27, 2015

Bill Burk said:
In his 1892 article "A Plea for Art Photography in America", Alfred Stieglitz explained that when compared to English photographers, Americans lack taste and sense for composition and for tone...

Indeed. A remarkable discovery.

Just as only French scientists had the ability, intelligence, and sensitivity to perceive N-Rays (*), there seems to be boundary of sorts separating the eastern and western hemispheres to account for this photographic phenomenon. What else could it be that prevents a photographer in Pennsylvania from composing and making a beautiful photograph? Perhaps it is something in the water.

(*)

https://books.google.com/books?id=i...=only french scientists detect n rays&f=false

http://skepdic.com/blondlot.html

Ko.Fe. · Jun 27, 2015

I have modern and simple approach on this.
To me if it is printed from negative in the darkroom it is more like a picture. If digital printed on canvas it still looks like photograph
Even scan of expired color cinefilm developed crappy way at home gives me picture. While those who are manipulating digitally taken image are getting photograph.

Rick A · Jun 27, 2015

"Picture yourself on a boat in a river
with tangerine trees and marmalade skies"
Now go photograph it.

Nathan King · Jun 27, 2015

silveror0 said:
So, Nathan, how does it happen that after all that reading about him you didn't absorb how to spell his name correctly? Stieglitz v. Steiglitz. Just curious. At least Bill attempted to get it right by using both versions. BTW, you're not the first one to trip over this, it happens all the time. No big deal, though, we all know what you meant.

I was on my phone and didn't pay attention. Whoops!!! That's embarrassing!

cliveh · Jun 27, 2015

Bill Burk said:
In his 1892 article "A Plea for Art Photography in America", Alfred Stieglitz explained that when compared to English photographers, Americans lack taste and sense for composition and for tone...

Hmm, he may have a point.

RobC · Jun 27, 2015

There is a famous quote of dubious source which says something like, "England and America are two nations separated by a common language."

The Victorians never could make their mind up whether photography was an art form or not.

You should read Peter Henry Emersons book "Naturalistic Photography for students of the Art" followed by his later "The death of naturalistic photography"

p.s. It seems to me that the English language which was so rich in Shakespeares day is continually being eroded by the amalgamation of two or more different words with subtely different meanings into one. Its called dumbing down, just like some people claiming that anything can be art, it ceases to have any real meaning.

gone · Jun 27, 2015

I have no idea what Steiglitz meant exactly, but I have the opposite issue as Bill. My first life was as a painter and printer, and I find it impossible to make "photographs". I'm always composing the space and seeing things as a painter would, and whether this is good or bad, who is to say? It's neither, it just is. I could never be a journalist sort of photographer, much as I admire those that do this wonderfully. It just isn't my strength. We can't do it all, and I'm of the mind that it's far better to stick to our strengths and focus on what comes naturally.

There used to be a saying "dumb as a painter" back when there actually were painters. Nearly everyone these days except the Sunday daubers tends to work in multiple mediums, including me. What it meant was that the painter knew only about their work, and I mean only about THEIR work. Nothing else was even on the radar. Once a gallery person that happened to be working in a place that was 90% photographs told me that painters drove her nuts. They weren't like photographers. She could have had the Mona Lisa hanging on the wall, it didn't matter, the painters would walk right past it and demand "Why is my work hanging in such a lousy spot"? Myself, I think that's exactly the right attitude! Matisse used to say that if someone wanted to be a painter they should never step foot into a gallery. Meaning I suppose, who cares what someone else is doing? Get in that studio and find your own voice.

Theo Sulphate · Jun 27, 2015

cliveh said:
Hmm, he may have a point.

Here's another of his quotes: "Photography is a fad well-nigh on its last legs, thanks principally to the bicycle craze."

A brilliant intellect. Unparalleled reasoning.

cliveh · Jun 27, 2015

Theo Sulphate said:
Here's another of his quotes: "Photography is a fad well-nigh on its last legs, thanks principally to the bicycle craze."

A brilliant intellect. Unparalleled reasoning.

Hmm, you may have a valid point.

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 27, 2015

Spelling corrected in the title, by request of the original poster.

Bill Burk · Jun 27, 2015

cliveh said:
Hmm, he may have a point.

He may. You're the first person I thought of when I read the article.

Bill Burk · Jun 27, 2015

Nathan King said:
I was on my phone and didn't pay attention. Whoops!!! That's embarrassing!

No matter how hard I try I can't get it right. I have no trouble spelling Edward Steichen correctly though.

Bill Burk · Jun 27, 2015

RobC said:
You should read Peter Henry Emersons book "Naturalistic Photography for students of the Art" followed by his later "The death of naturalistic photography".

I'll add that to the list, thanks RobC

RobC · Jun 27, 2015

totally off topic but I just looked at bing and their current image is of where I live, well just down the road 5 miles.

http://www.bing.com/?cc=gb

If it doesn't show Torcross then you're seeing a different picture to me.

RobC · Jun 27, 2015

Bill Burk said:
I'll add that to the list, thanks RobC

The ISBN is 0-405-04906-4 which contains both his book and his later renunciation.

Alan Klein · Jun 27, 2015

People get my last name, Klein, wrong as well.

smieglitz · Jun 27, 2015

There is a documentary out there on William Mortensen narrated by none other than the ghoulish art aficionado Vincent Price. Price vehemently asserts that Mortensen was distinctly a maker of "pictures."

Bill Burk · Jun 28, 2015

APUGuser19 said:
I have a hard time with people who intellectualize on things like this. Probably because when I intellectualize and pontificate on things, I realize afterwards I was probably full of baloney.

I tend to figure things out by working it out like this.

I think it's fairly safe to say that not knowing the difference between a picture and a photograph has not caused my work to be deficient compared to the work of an English colleague like cliveh.

More likely there is a simple explanation.

I probably haven't taken as many pictures as he has.

Theo Sulphate · Jun 28, 2015

A picture can be a painting, a drawing, a photograph, or sometimes a container for holding liquids.

A photograph is a picture made with a camera.

RobC · Jun 28, 2015

Theo Sulphate said:
A picture can be a painting, a drawing, a photograph, or sometimes a container for holding liquids.

A photograph is a picture made with a camera.

Nice pair of Jugs...

Stieglitz said we should try to turn out beautiful Pictures not Photographs

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