Sticky plastic Paterson reel cure

pmu · Oct 20, 2014

Being a Paterson user for a number of years it all chanced the day I got a Jobo tank. I have a bunch of Paterson reels and tanks, but only one small Jobo (using that for a few years now). I found myself browsing the *bay trying to find a good deal on Jobos. No luck. I tested again a few of the Patersons and the sticky and squeaky motion...no thanks. I cleaned them with various household chemicals, brushed them, did some voodoo and also prayed a little bit. Still not as as smooth as I would like. Finally I came up with a solution:

1. Remove the ball bearings.
2. Clean the reels with all in one (clean + rinse) type of machine dishwasher detergent.
3. Rinse well and let dry.
4. Done.

Now you can use the reels Jobo -style. No twisting motion, just push the film onto the reel. When loading the film, _don't_ grab the reel too firmly and _don't_ push the sides against each other. The reel on the video used to be hidden in the closet. Didn't want to use it because of having to many problems with the stickyness.

Video: http://vimeo.com/109428857

AgX · Oct 20, 2014

pmu said:
Now you can use the [Paterson] reels Jobo-style. No twisting motion, just push the film onto the reel.

The "Jobo-style just means twisting.

To my understanding... Not with an inbuilt ratchet-mechanism as with the Paterson reels, but by employing fingertips alternatively on the film edges at those recesses in the reel.

I never just pushed film onto a Jobo reel.

pmu · Oct 20, 2014

AgX said:
The "Jobo-style just means twisting.

To my understanding... Not with an inbuilt ratchet-mechanism as with the Paterson reels, but by employing fingertips alternatively on the film edges at those recesses in the reel.

I never just pushed film onto a Jobo reel.

Maybe you are right. I have tried that also many times and I see no point twisting a Jobo reel. For that technique Paterson reels are much smoother. Jobo feels very "rough" when twisting. The easiest method imo by far is just to push the film onto the reel.

AgX · Oct 20, 2014

Yes, the old-style (clear) Jobo reels have wedge-like barbs, whereas once those balls are taken out the Paterson reels have plain grooves as far as I know.

Back to your topic:
You stated thar you are a long time user of Paterson reels. So I assume those sticky ones you bought used and are not yours cleaned after each use.

pmu · Oct 20, 2014

AgX said:
Back to your topic:
You stated thar you are a long time user of Paterson reels. So I assume those sticky ones you bought used and are not yours cleaned after each use.

New and used. I always clean them at least with very hot running water. BTW, I don't use photo flo. Once in a while I used to wash them with a brush and whatever cleaning chemicals I found at home. My Jobos have always been much less sticky than Paterson reels even if I have washed Jobo reels only with mild water.

The point of my post / video was to show that the stickyness in Paterson reels was completely fixed by using that "all in one" dishwasher detergent and that by removing the bearings the loading of film becomes much easier if one chances the method how to give the film onto the reel. IMO of course. Just for "fun", few minutes ago, I took one of the Paterson reels that still have those bearings and I "twisted" the film onto it... Yes it went there, but I see no reason why would I do it the harder way

pdeeh · Oct 20, 2014

I've got lots of Paterson reels and none them are sticky

Ian Grant · Oct 20, 2014

Just wash the reels in biological washing powder it cleans them well, I've been using Paterson Systen 4 tanks since they were first introduced.

No need to remove the ball bearings although the odd one has been lost with my reels and they work better with just one

A good rinse in hot water after each use and they remain clean.

Ian

pmu · Oct 20, 2014

I'm happy that some of you do not have this problem. A quick search on Google reveals that there are a lot of people who have had similar stickyness with paterson reels... For example: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

R.Gould · Oct 20, 2014

Just run a pencil around the groves, film slips in like a hot knife though butter

tokam · Oct 20, 2014

I think some people are VERY generous with the Photoflo. One to two drops in the final rinse is almost too much. A few surface bubbles after stirring are OK but if you see foaming after adding the Photoflo you have definitely overdone it. My oldest System 4 reel dates to 1973 and has only ever been hot rinsed after use and gives no feeding problems.

I have my reservations regarding use of soft pencil to 'lubricate' the grooves. What about graphite particles becoming embedded in the emulsion next time you develop a film. Or, do you just give it a good hot rinse after using the pencil?

Xmas · Oct 20, 2014

tokam said:
I think some people are VERY generous with the Photoflo. One to two drops in the final rinse is almost too much. A few surface bubbles after stirring are OK but if you see foaming after adding the Photoflo you have definitely overdone it. My oldest System 4 reel dates to 1973 and has only ever been hot rinsed after use and gives no feeding problems.

I have my reservations regarding use of soft pencil to 'lubricate' the grooves. What about graphite particles becoming embedded in the emulsion next time you develop a film. Or, do you just give it a good hot rinse after using the pencil?

Ive got lots of patterson reels aome bought new and some used and with one proviso never have trouble loading, never cleaned reels.

If you have a reverse winding take up spool camera (most 35mm) or 120 with labyrinthine path e.g. most TLR, then if the film has been in the camera for a few days you need to leave it in the cassette/roll for the same time otherwise it memorises its in camera shape and wont load into a patterson.

R.Gould · Oct 20, 2014

tokam said:
I think some people are VERY generous with the Photoflo. One to two drops in the final rinse is almost too much. A few surface bubbles after stirring are OK but if you see foaming after adding the Photoflo you have definitely overdone it. My oldest System 4 reel dates to 1973 and has only ever been hot rinsed after use and gives no feeding problems.

I have my reservations regarding use of soft pencil to 'lubricate' the grooves. What about graphite particles becoming embedded in the emulsion next time you develop a film. Or, do you just give it a good hot rinse after using the pencil?

I have been using a pencil for as long as I have been using Patterson reels, which is as long as I have been developing film, which is almost as long as Patterson have been making developing tanks, I have yet to have any form of problem I don't rinse the reels, other than when washing the film, Every third use I run a pencil around the groves,just before loading the film, and have yet to have a film stick, so the graphite can't cause any problems that I can see
Richard

gone · Oct 20, 2014

My problems were related to build up of photo-flo. Couldn't see the build up, but the film was sticking. The cure was pretty much as you stated. Wash them well w/ hot water, dish washing liquid, and a toothbrush. I automatically wash the reels and tanks like this after every developing session. No trouble since, and I've run hundreds of rolls of film through them this way. Never had any troubles w/ the ball bearings, although they were my first suspects.

Ian Grant · Oct 20, 2014

There's a build up of gelatin that rubs of the film that helps retain the photoflo.

Ian

MattKing · Oct 20, 2014

If I understand the OP correctly, he/she loads plastic reels by just pushing film into the reels, so he/she needs them to be very, very "smooth" - essentially friction-less.

Many (most?) of us load plastic reels by alternately pushing and rotating each side of the reel, so a small amount of friction between film and reels doesn't really matter.

For me, I think a friction-less reel would be harder to load strongly curled film on to, because I expect it would tend to move back out of the reel by itself, but that is probably because I rely on there being a small amount of friction there.

pmu · Oct 20, 2014

MattKing said:
If I understand the OP correctly, he/she loads plastic reels by just pushing film into the reels, so he/she needs them to be very, very "smooth" - essentially friction-less.

Actually with Jobo reels I don't mind if they are not super smooth. There is some friction, but the film still goes in nicely. I will test those (now super smooth) Paterson reels without bearings how do they continue to work if I just clean the reels with water (like my Jobos). I will report back later.

AgX · Oct 20, 2014

As others have pointed out residues from surfactant should easily be rinsed off and thus not build up.
Gelatine though may be more stubborn. A cure may either be hot water, enzymes or alkali (as dishwasher).

The cause though for a dífference between Jobo and Paterson reels for getting sticky (if there is, and Jobo also changed materials) is not quite clear to me.

pmu · Oct 20, 2014

AgX said:
The cause though for a dífference between Jobo and Paterson reels for getting sticky (if there is, and Jobo also changed materials) is not quite clear to me.

The plastic feels different. Maybe that's one of the reasons? My Jobo reels are those small white ones.

I had a couple of AP brand Paterson style reels and they were very sticky compared to Paterson ones. The AP reel plastic was clearly very different -- harder and whiter material. Yesterday, I threw all AP spirals to thrash.

cliveh · Oct 20, 2014

Loading a Paterson reel: - Cut the film leader off on the whole width of film between the sprocket holes (nice straight edge) and then slightly chamfer the edges by cutting off a very small V shape at a 45° angle. Load the first 6 or so (bit you fogged when loading the camera) in daylight. Put the spiral with this first bit of film loaded and cassette with rest of film inside at start of spiral on top of the empty tank with tank lid next to tank. If it is a single tank, the black core can already be in the middle of the spiral. Now when you put this in a changing bag or darkroom you know where things are.
In total darkness hold one thumb against the start of the spiral so you can feel where the film is and ensure that it does not slip and pull the cassette away to pay out the entire length of film. Then holding the spiral at each side in both hands, with your thumbs on the sticky outey bit of plastic at the entrance to the spiral and your index fingers slightly touching the back of the film so you can feel the film loading, make see-saw turns to load the film. As more film enters the spiral you may have to make smaller turns. Finally when the cassette jams up against the spiral, rip the film using your fingernails and finish loading. Put in tank (flange of core at the bottom) and fix on lid so it clicks to lock in place. Turn tank upside down in total darkness to ensure lid is locked in. Hey Presto tank loaded.

MattKing · Oct 20, 2014

pmu said:
Yesterday, I threw all AP spirals to thrash.

Argh!

I greatly prefer the AP reels to the Paterson reels for loading 120, and I and others would have been happy to buy them from you!

Dr Croubie · Oct 20, 2014

Strange that you're all calling Paterson reels sticky, my experience is the opposite.
But then, Ibought my Paterson brand new, and I've only used them for B+W.
My Jobo 1500 white-plastic reels I got 2nd-hand (from someone who used to do a lot of E6, based on the labels of the tanks and the Ciba drum and books) and some of them were sticky as all hell, inside and out, on the shaft too. A few warm baths and some of them have cleaned up nicely.
My other Jobo 2500 reels (clear plastic) aren't sticky at all, but I haven't used them much and don't know what the previous owner did with them.

I'll agree that the Jobos do load slightly easier than the Paterson, but there's nothing wrong with the ball-bearing as long as it's clean and dry and not rusted-in-place from sitting around wet too long.
Both brands work all the easier with running a pencil around the grooves too.

cmacd123 · Oct 20, 2014

MattKing said:
Argh!

I greatly prefer the AP reels to the Paterson reels for loading 120, and I and others would have been happy to buy them from you!

Yes indeed a shame to waste photo equipment.

There are TWO families of the AP reels. The older ones are quite white in colour and have open ends. The newer ones are a Milky colour and have a set of film guides that are almost all the way across at the mouth of the reel, when it is set for 35mm.

The newer once are much more "slippery' that the old style ones.

There are several version of the paterson reels over the years, and the older ones are in general more slippery than the newer ones. It is also possible to mate some paterson reels from different generations together. The older ones have a black dot to indicate where the reel halves line up, while the newer ones have notches in the edge of the core area. if a dot part and a notch part are mated, the reel will often be hard to load. I have also noted both wide and narrow notches in different reels and these are best considered different deigns.

The 1500 series Jobo reels are milky coloured plastic and have no ratchet mechanism other than a depression on the side where one can touch the edge of the film. This I find I can often load by just pushing the film into the slot 6-8 inches at a time. If it balks, pushing alternately on the accessible edges of the film already loaded is generally sufficient to allow loading to continue.

the older Clear 1000 series Jobo reels also allow just pushing the film in, but they do have a claw that will drive 35mm sprocket holes, if the sides are roatated back and forth.

The 1000 series reels can be set to take 127, while the 1500 series seems (at least on my reels) to have dropped that feature.

If have overcome stickiness by leaving the reels to soak overnight (or a couple of days) in plain water.

tokam · Oct 21, 2014

Whilst I can always load 35mm film easily into a Patterson reel, 120 usually gives me some grief due to the thinner base and
larger area of the film.

For future 120 developing I'm going to reserve a Patterson reel and give it the pencil treatment. Only when dry and give the reel
a good blow out to remove any graphite particles before loading and processing.

Steve Smith · Oct 21, 2014

I used to put a tiny amount of Mr Sheen furniture polish on mine with a small artists' brush. It works very well.

Now though (for 35mm) I use a Gepe reel which loads from the centre. It has a clip on guide which holds the cassette and puts a curve on the film to make it load properly. It can be don by hand without the guide.

It even works if it is wet.

I just need to get one for 120 now.

Steve.

pmu · Oct 21, 2014

I was able to test the problem by dipping the super smooth reel to a soapy water for a few times and letting it dry between. Lastly, I left the reel to dry with film in it overnight. The reel had still ball bearings. Now the reel is super sticky and it can simulate nicely a very problematic loading situation.

When inserting the film with the normal Paterson fashion, the film went in 80% before it started to get stuck. After this point twisting the reel started to bend/twist the film. THAT is the problem. There have been few times when the film was partially ruined by film being wrinkled / bent (I don't know what's the correct word). It's the twisting motion of the loading method that causes the film to warp. In broad daylight, I was able to reel 90% of the film. In darkness this would have been quite a disastrous loading situation.

Then I took the bearings out and tried to push the film into the reel. I was able to load the same 90% of the film before it got too sticky. Biggest difference was that when pushing the film the was no risk of warping or twisting the film... At some point it just got too sticky and the film didn't move forward.

Sticky plastic Paterson reel cure

pmu

AgX

pmu

AgX

pmu

pdeeh

Ian Grant

pmu

R.Gould

tokam

Xmas

R.Gould

gone

Ian Grant

MattKing

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pmu

AgX

pmu

cliveh

MattKing

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Dr Croubie

cmacd123

tokam

Steve Smith

pmu

Sticky plastic Paterson reel cure

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