Stick with 6x6 or try 645?

dpt2014 · Nov 12, 2012

I've tried 35mm for the past year and just couldn't get into it. I recently got a QL17 GIII, prefer it much over my Electro 35 GSN, and foresee myself shooting 35mm more often now.

But I just very recently picked up a 124G and instantly fell in love it. I'm not sure if it's the WLF, 6x6 aspect ratio, or a combination of both. I picked up the 124G cheap to get my feet wet with medium format. Didn't want to spend a fortune on something I wouldn't love. Welp, turns out that I do love it.

Now, given that I already have a 124G, should I replace/upgrade it with a Rolleicord/Rolleiflex (either a cord Vb or flex under $1k) or stick with the 124G and give 645 a shot (I have my eye on an m645 with standard 80 2.8)?

I see it this way: I can a) stick with the 124G and pick up a m645 for variety or b) sell my 124G to fund a cord/flex, but be "limited" (I use the term loosely) to one aspect ratio.

Note: the m645 has a WLF as I am not interested in using a prism. I like the perspective of shooting from waist level vs eye level.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

BrianShaw · Nov 12, 2012

Why? Answer that question and you'll have your answer.

BrianShaw · Nov 12, 2012

... but if it is versatility you want, a Vb is a good option. Decent camera and you can easily find a 16-exposure kit and convert it to 645.

benjiboy · Nov 12, 2012

If you don't want to use a prism on 645 you have to take all your shots in the landscape format,which is a pain, one of the beauties of 6x6 is that it can be cropped in either vertical or horizontal format without doing acrobatics with the camera.Since you are new to medium format and are pleased with the results you are getting with the 124 G I would stick to what you have for now and if you want to upgrade in the future think about a medium format camera that will accept interchangeable lenses to improve your versatility like a Mamiya C330F or a Zenza Bronica SQ SLR.

dpt2014 · Nov 12, 2012

Why A? I know I love shooting with a TLR. By no means have I outgrown the 124G, but as I understand it, it's an entry-level TLR in this day and age (nothing wrong with that) and is considered many to be built like a "toy." I am in no hurry to get rid of the 124G if I choose route A, but I can keep my eyes open for a good deal on a cord/flex.

Why B? As mentioned above, by no means have I outgrown or mastered the 124G. I'm sure it will serve me as long as I take care of it. m645 because I'm interested in seeing if I will enjoy shooting that aspect ratio as well.

Another thing I should mention is I will use either for street photography. My experience with the 124G is that the general public seems intrigued and less threatened by it (I'm sure this goes for any TLR). For anyone with experience, how do people respond to the m645 (or like cameras) being pointed at them? I ask this because I am by no means threatening or creepy, but my experience with DSLRs with street photography has been poor. Maybe it's my approach, maybe it's the camera. All I know is that I've had much more success with the 124G than my 5D2. Wondering if I'll be as successful with something like an m645.

@benjiboy - I understand the limits of using a WLF with 645 and I am okay with shooting in landscape only. I rarely shoot in portrait with any of my 35mm cameras and I don't foresee landscape only being a problem if I choose to go 645. As for your suggestion about a MF like the C330, I've considered the C33 and C330 - but I've read bother are cumbersome to carry, especially for street photography.

BrianShaw · Nov 12, 2012

Great answers!

Here is my advise: do as Ben suggests and shoot the 124G until it is worn out. I did that with a Vb many years ago - on tripod for landscapes, on monopod for "street", and handheld for very little. Cropping to 645 aspect is easy and can be done in both directions with equal ease. (BTW, the monopod and a lens hood were my two most valued accessories.)

Suggestion: invest in film and travel. Stop thinking about gear!

benjiboy · Nov 12, 2012

dpt2014 said:
Why A? I know I love shooting with a TLR. By no means have I outgrown the 124G, but as I understand it, it's an entry-level TLR in this day and age (nothing wrong with that) and is considered many to be built like a "toy." I am in no hurry to get rid of the 124G if I choose route A, but I can keep my eyes open for a good deal on a cord/flex.

Why B? As mentioned above, by no means have I outgrown or mastered the 124G. I'm sure it will serve me as long as I take care of it. m645 because I'm interested in seeing if I will enjoy shooting that aspect ratio as well.

Another thing I should mention is I will use either for street photography. My experience with the 124G is that the general public seems intrigued and less threatened by it (I'm sure this goes for any TLR). For anyone with experience, how do people respond to the m645 (or like cameras) being pointed at them? I ask this because I am by no means threatening or creepy, but my experience with DSLRs with street photography has been poor. Maybe it's my approach, maybe it's the camera. All I know is that I've had much more success with the 124G than my 5D2. Wondering if I'll be as successful with something like an m645.

@benjiboy - I understand the limits of using a WLF with 645 and I am okay with shooting in landscape only. I rarely shoot in portrait with any of my 35mm cameras and I don't foresee landscape only being a problem if I choose to go 645. As for your suggestion about a MF like the C330, I've considered the C33 and C330 - but I've read bother are cumbersome to carry, especially for street photography.

M/F SLRs I.M.O. make too much noise for street shooting. I, had a Rolleiflex 2.8F and replaced it with a Mamiya C330F about twenty five years ago and have never regretted it, they are slightly more cumbersome but you have to "suffer for your art", but the advantages of interchangeable lenses in versatility in a TLR are great

BrianShaw · Nov 12, 2012

...so having been tempted by a Mamiya TLR years ago (but never left Rollei)... those interchangable lenses sure are nice!

Thomas Bertilsson · Nov 12, 2012

I found that shooting 645 was not a benefit. I used a Rolleiflex for a few years, and loved it. Perfect camera. Then I wanted interchangeable lenses, and I was gifted a Mamiya 645. I loved especially the 150 lens, but using it for portraits was borderline impossible, or impractical at best. So I got a Hasselblad and three lenses. Now I kind of wish I had that Rolleiflex again...

The grass isn't greener on the other side, but in my experience, nobody learns that lesson without going there to check for themselves. You already know you like the Yashica, and that cropping the 6x6 negatives is a piece of cake. If you want to use 645 I would recommend either loaning a 645 camera from someone you know, or get a cheap Holga and put the 645 mask in it. Then see how you enjoy the 645 format after printing a few dozen of them.

Finally, I find it difficult to take negatives from my Rolleiflex days and combining them with negatives from the 645 days and make coherent looking series of prints from them. Usually I use most of the area of the negatives, regardless of format, so I end up with some prints rectangular and others square, and that does bother me quite a bit, actually. Just throwing that out there in case that is something you had not considered.

Good luck with your choices.

Dan Daniel · Nov 12, 2012

BrianShaw said:
... but if it is versatility you want, a Vb is a good option. Decent camera and you can easily find a 16-exposure kit and convert it to 645.

Rolleicord Va also takes 16 exposure inserts. And the Rolleiflex T, although it might be a different set of parts.

Either way, go shoot for a while until you reach the limits of the Yashica. I don't have the actual quote, but the gist of a comment on camera-hopping: get a project going, get shooting, and you won't be thinking about the camera.

brian steinberger · Nov 12, 2012

I'd stick with the 6x6 and crop down to 6x4.5 only if you feel the need. Not sure if the VF in your Yashica has crop lines or not for 6x4.5 but that helps also. Personally I love the 6x6 format. But I also have a 6x4.5 camera. I don't think I'd like to be stuck in one format or the other but there are many that do. Basically you will find out if you like the square format by shooting your Yashica and studying your results. You may find yourself cropping to 6x4.5 (rectangle), and if you are cropping alot, maybe you prefer a rectangular image better than square and then could maybe pursue a 6x4.5 camera like the Mamiya or even a 6x7 camera.

flatulent1 · Nov 12, 2012

dpt2014 said:
Why A? I know I love shooting with a TLR. By no means have I outgrown the 124G, but as I understand it, it's an entry-level TLR in this day and age (nothing wrong with that) and is considered many to be built like a "toy." I am in no hurry to get rid of the 124G if I choose route A, but I can keep my eyes open for a good deal on a cord/flex.

I can't imagine why this makes a difference, it's a great camera. A Holga is a toy.

dpt2014 said:
Another thing I should mention is I will use either for street photography. My experience with the 124G is that the general public seems intrigued and less threatened by it (I'm sure this goes for any TLR). For anyone with experience, how do people respond to the m645 (or like cameras) being pointed at them? I ask this because I am by no means threatening or creepy, but my experience with DSLRs with street photography has been poor. Maybe it's my approach, maybe it's the camera. All I know is that I've had much more success with the 124G than my 5D2. Wondering if I'll be as successful with something like an m645.

I have a 645 Pro TL with WLF for street-like shooting, doesn't seem to bother people. The 124G gets pretty much the same non-reaction. An EOS 1V with 24-70 2.8 tends to get wary glances and sometimes open hostility. There's a WLF for the Nikon F4; I sometimes wonder how folks would react to that. By the way, I have never been bent out of shape by the restrictions placed on using a WLF on 645. If I have to crop, I crop.

You might also consider a Bronica SQAi; not so cheap as a Mamiya kit, but still 6x6.

tkamiya · Nov 12, 2012

Here's my advise.

If you want a new camera, GET IT! You'll enjoy it and join the rest of us who just like to have and shoot something different. However, if you think new camera will improve your photograph, FORGET IT until you reach a point the reason of getting that new camera is a result of limitation you are experiencing with your old camera.

Granted, with enough skills, you can do just about anything with just about any camera, sometimes gears made for that purpose will make it easier and possible in more situations. To me, that's when getting new camera makes sense. But then again, since this is our hobby, nothing HAS TO make sense. (right?) Enjoyment is a reason enough for me.

As to format, it's really a matter of your personal preference.

MattKing · Nov 12, 2012

I shoot both 6x6 (Mamiya C330 TLR) and two different SLR systems with "rectangular" formats (Mamiya 645 Pro and Mamiya RB67).

The best reason to consider an SLR is to permit you to do the things you cannot do as easily with a TLR - close-focus work, work that requires precise framing, work that benefits from TTl metering, work that benefits from interchangeable backs, work that benefits from a motor drive, etc.

You might also prefer the ergonomics of one over the other - that is a good reason to switch.

Don't discount the importance of being restricted to landscape orientation before you have tried it - it just takes one picture per roll that demands portrait orientation to end up causing you great frustration.

I don't know whether this applies to the OP, but I have observed that people who tend to view their photographs on a computer monitor tend to use portrait orientation much less frequently than those who prefer to work with prints or project slides.

Slixtiesix · Nov 12, 2012

If your Yashica is in full working order I would continue shooting with it. A Rolleicord Vb or Rolleiflex T won´t give you much increase in picture quality, if any at all and you probably need to have them overhauled before you can use them. A Rolleiflex with Planar or Xenotar will possibly deliver sharper images but only at full aperture. From F8 onwards there will be hardly any difference visible. I would only upgrade if you are not satisfied with the pictures the Yashica delivers (but mind then, Rolleis will be only marginally better) or if it fails mechanically beyond repair. If you should want to buy a Rollei nonetheless, better bring some patience. It is advisable to wait for one in nice condition or even recently serviced. Otherwise you should plan in another 100-150 usd to have it CLAd, if necessity should arise.

ntenny · Nov 12, 2012

Who ever used the word "toy" about a 124G? I thought they were widely acknowledged to be about the best TLRs going that aren't Rolleis. The taking lens should be pretty similar to the Tessar/Xenar on a 'cord or a T. If you can score a Planar/Xenotar Rolleiflex at a good price, by all means go for it, but I don't think you should expect a meaningful optical upgrade from the other models.

-NT

dpt2014 · Nov 12, 2012

Excellent recommendations, all. I think I will stick with the 124G and continue thinking about the m645.

Regarding the "toy" comment about the 124G, it's an opinion I've read on a number of boards. Many posters say that once you've handled a Rolleiflex, anything else (they've mentioned the 124G specifically) feels like a toy. I suppose there exists Rolleiflex "supremacists" and that is where the "toy" reference comes from. Perhaps the word "toy" is a bit harsh. Thought I don't see anyone raving about the build quality of the 124G, whereas Mamiyas (e.g. the C-series) are often described as being built like tanks.

Personally, I can't say that the 124G feels cheap by any means (then again, I haven't handled a Rolleiflex...heh).

dpt2014 · Nov 12, 2012

Another question...

I see a lot of posts in this thread recommending that if I'm interested in 6x4.5 that I should just crop down from 6x6. I wonder to myself why that is. The advantage I see is less equipment to acquire.

That said, I've never been into cropping. I've shot digital for years and and very familiar with the crop tool in Photoshop - takes 2 seconds. Maybe it's just my eyes, but I've never looked through a viewfinder and thought, "I'll frame it like this now and crop it the way I want later." I prefer to "get what I see." Maybe I'm being naive or stubborn, but I shoot 6x6 because I like that aspect ratio. If I want to shoot 6x4.5, I would not feel comfortable shooting 6x6 with the mindset of framing for when I want to crop down to 6x4.5 later. I'm sure this is a self-limitation, but that's just how my mind works.

MattKing · Nov 12, 2012

dpt2014 said:
Another question...

I see a lot of posts in this thread recommending that if I'm interested in 6x4.5 that I should just crop down from 6x6. I wonder to myself why that is. The advantage I see is less equipment to acquire.

That said, I've never been into cropping. I've shot digital for years and and very familiar with the crop tool in Photoshop - takes 2 seconds. Maybe it's just my eyes, but I've never looked through a viewfinder and thought, "I'll frame it like this now and crop it the way I want later." I prefer to "get what I see." Maybe I'm being naive or stubborn, but I shoot 6x6 because I like that aspect ratio. If I want to shoot 6x4.5, I would not feel comfortable shooting 6x6 with the mindset of framing for when I want to crop down to 6x4.5 later. I'm sure this is a self-limitation, but that's just how my mind works.

You may find that the "cropping" issue will engender more discussion then you expect .

In my mind, the subjects of my photographs are what should determine the "shape" of the final result.

The aspect ratio offered by the camera is just something that I need to work with in order to waste as little real estate as possible in the resulting negative or slide.

Of course for slides, it may be more important, because they are often projected (by me).

It probably helps that I both do my own darkroom work, and cut my own mats.

By the way, I shot a fair number of weddings where I was mentally cropping every 6x6 shot I took, as I took them, because 4x5 aspect ratio usually works best in most wedding albums.

ntenny · Nov 12, 2012

dpt2014 said:
That said, I've never been into cropping. I've shot digital for years and and very familiar with the crop tool in Photoshop - takes 2 seconds. Maybe it's just my eyes, but I've never looked through a viewfinder and thought, "I'll frame it like this now and crop it the way I want later." I prefer to "get what I see." Maybe I'm being naive or stubborn, but I shoot 6x6 because I like that aspect ratio. If I want to shoot 6x4.5, I would not feel comfortable shooting 6x6 with the mindset of framing for when I want to crop down to 6x4.5 later. I'm sure this is a self-limitation, but that's just how my mind works.

I have kind of a senseless fetish for keeping the original aspect ratio whenever possible, so I'm sympathetic. I can shoot wide with the intention of cropping later, but it feels wrong to look at a square while planning for a rectangle.

Personally, I found I didn't like 645 very much. It does of course have the problem that to switch between landscape and portrait you typically have to rotate the camera, which is seriously awkward with a WLF and less than convenient with many MF cameras, but I just found it to be an unappealing compromise between smaller and larger formats---others feel differently, obviously. IMHO, try the format before you commit much money to it.

-NT

tkamiya · Nov 12, 2012

There is NOTHING wrong with cropping..... In film world, you just raise the enlarger head and project the image larger than the easel will allow you to print, then move the easel to get portion of the image you actually want to put down on paper.

I avoid including too much extraneous stuff when shooting but if I think the image will be improved by excluding something, or change my mind when I see the negs, I will happily crop. There is no need to be that rigid in thinking that all cropping need to be avoided.

For the same token, often times, aspect ratio of the frame doesn't match the aspect ratio of paper, so I inevitably end up cropping something. At other times, I print full frame and leave out the white space.

dpt2014 · Nov 12, 2012

I'm not saying cropping is wrong or taboo, I know it's done quite often. Just not by me. I'm with Nathan on this. Looking at a square and planning rectangle just doesn't feel right to me. I'm sure that I'm being nonsensical and irrational here, but I'm only human.

I would never dismiss a photograph because it's been cropped, I just don't prefer to do it myself is all.

BrianShaw · Nov 12, 2012

dpt2014 said:
I'm sure that I'm being nonsensical and irrational here, but I'm only human.

Go easy on yourself. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and their working method. I'm a chronic cropper but I, guess what, have a tendency to compose for the format I'm shooting. It is human nature, I suppose.

My recco to stick with your Yashika and crop is based entirely on whay you suspected: less gear.

hsandler · Nov 12, 2012

I went from a Minolta Autocord TLR to a Bronica ETRSi, which is 645 SLR, similar to the Mamiya 645. I prefer the 645 aspect ratio. I have both a waist level finder and a prism. For street photos, its unobtrusive to use the waist, but I never do because I like to do verticals, and composing even horizontals quickly with the waist is difficult for me with the image reversed. With the prism on, the camera looks as intimidating to strangers as any big SLR. Another thing no one has mentioned is mirror slap on a med format SLR. It is difficult to hand hold for lower shutter speeds compared to the TLR. I think you are better off for what you want with your TLR.

warden · Nov 12, 2012

Cropping - I'm all for it if needed, and sometimes it's needed. For some reason I'm more inclined to crop 35mm to a square or whatever proportion looks good, but with 6X6 I like to keep it square if at all possible, and use the whole negative. Don't know why.

To the OP - the 124G is a great camera - not a toy, but not a Rollei either. If you have some money and want to have some fun then sell the Mat and get a recently CLA'd Rollei. It's still a TLR and the quality is better after all. Your images might improve when you use a better camera, but then again maybe not. And who cares. Just have fun; that's what it's all about with film.

I have a Yashica TLR which I like. Then I got a Hassy and two lenses thinking I would enjoy the better quality glass, the ability to change the lenses, the film backs, etc. Turns out I don't give a hoot about most of that stuff, and I hate the noise and the mirror slapping around in there, so now I'm shooting the Yashica again, and appreciating it for what it is: simple, small, silent, non-vibrating. It really is a nice camera.

Stick with 6x6 or try 645?

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