Stealing

Perry Way · Sep 19, 2009

MattKing said:
Because it is essentially the same as changing the tag yourself, and then trying to rely on it.

It is not the same at all. There is nothing wrong with picking up an item that has a price marked on it for a rediculously low amount and making a beeline to the cashier. If you don't switch the price tag yourself then where's the guilt? It is up to the store to maintain their price tags, not me. There is no implied morality code when you're in the realms of a commercial establishment that has professional shelves, displays and .... price tags that have been printed from machines.

I know this.. especially in today's economy of bankruptcy sales and horrible economic conditions for millions of people around the world, old items that haven't been sold are sometimes marked down to a rediculously low amount. I found a $40 picture frame marked down to $0.50 when Longs Drugstore closed down and a CVS Pharmacy sprouted up in the same storespace. I bought it without any guilt.

MattKing · Sep 19, 2009

You missed an important part of my post.

You have to know that the tag is the wrong one, for it to be wrong on your part. That is something entirely different then knowing that the price is lower then the market dictates.

As an example, if you pick up a brick of 20 rolls of film, and see it has the same price tag, including stock number and price, as the tag for an (adjacent) single roll of film.

When you present that to the cashier, knowing that the tag doesn't accurately relate to the product it is attached to, you are acting in bad faith, because you are asking the cashier to rely on something you know to be in error.

If all you see is a very favourable price, and have no reason to believe that it is anything but a good deal, then you are free to take advantage of it.

By the way, there is a whole bunch of common law about price tags and errors that might be on them. Essentially (in common law) a retailer isn't required to honour a price tag that is in error. The price tags aren't considered to be offers, but instead "invitations to treat". Essentially, they are offers to entertain offers.

There are a whole bunch of statutory provisions that overlay this.

Matt

Perry Way · Sep 19, 2009

MattKing said:
You missed an important part of my post.

You have to know that the tag is the wrong one, for it to be wrong on your part. That is something entirely different then knowing that the price is lower then the market dictates.

As an example, if you pick up a brick of 20 rolls of film, and see it has the same price tag, including stock number and price, as the tag for an (adjacent) single roll of film.

When you present that to the cashier, knowing that the tag doesn't accurately relate to the product it is attached to, you are acting in bad faith, because you are asking the cashier to rely on something you know to be in error.

If all you see is a very favourable price, and have no reason to believe that it is anything but a good deal, then you are free to take advantage of it.

By the way, there is a whole bunch of common law about price tags and errors that might be on them. Essentially (in common law) a retailer isn't required to honour a price tag that is in error. The price tags aren't considered to be offers, but instead "invitations to treat". Essentially, they are offers to entertain offers.

There are a whole bunch of statutory provisions that overlay this.

Matt

hehe, Matt, not to nitpick for no reason.. but logically speaking you just made a contradiction. The common law aspect you mentioned, if you're correct about that, infers the responsibility is on the seller, not the buyer and the power is on the seller, not the buyer. So therefore that goes in line with the point I made which is that it's the store's responsibility to ensure that the price tags are correct.

Look if the store hires some pothead who's smoking weed in the storeroom and due to zoning out on something he (or she) in error mis-tags some product and that product is sitting on the shelf next to the same product with a different price, and I happen to pick up the one with the price labeled by the pothead and go to the register and they let me pay for it and leave, then there is no guilt whatsoever. The guilt lies with the pothead, and the responsibility to fix it lies on the store management. In no way does it transfer to the purchaser.. even if the purchaser picks up all the similar items and checks the prices on every one of them and selects the one with the lowest price.

I've been in stores where there were prices mismatched. I bought items that way before. Part of me wondered why prices were marked that way. I brought it up to the owner (it was a small town I lived in and the grocery store was a mom and pop shop). He scratched his head while his memory scanned the history... and then he suddenly said "oh yes! We weren't selling them and I reduced the price to get them off the shelf. Looks like I missed a few".

MattKing · Sep 19, 2009

No contradiction - the "invitation to treat" analysis was created to avoid the tags being considered "offers" so as not to create binding contracts as soon as the price tag is "accepted" by the customer. Just because the retailer isn't required to sell to you at that price doesn't mean that it isn't likely that a busy cashier will ring it through in error at that price.

It doesn't matter what the store is doing - if you present an item to a cashier with a price tag on it that you know is false (not just showing an unusual price), then your presentation of that tag, with an implied or actual representation that the tag reflects the retailer's price and other details for the item, is a falsehood on your part.

If the retailer has multiple items on the shelf, and different examples show different prices, you have no reason to believe that any one tag is more accurate than another (most likely they were all accurate when the items were tagged) so unless there is a huge disparity (e.g. one item at $197.00 and the same item at $1.97) there is no falsehood involved in finding the item on the shelf with the lowest price, and buying it.

I would reiterate - you have to know that the tag is the wrong tag, and you have to intend to have the store rely on what you know to be false, for there to be a consequence to you.

Matt

JBrunner · Sep 19, 2009

MattKing said:
No contradiction - the "invitation to treat" analysis was created to avoid the tags being considered "offers" so as not to create binding contracts as soon as the price tag is "accepted" by the customer. Just because the retailer isn't required to sell to you at that price doesn't mean that it isn't likely that a busy cashier will ring it through in error at that price.

It doesn't matter what the store is doing - if you present an item to a cashier with a price tag on it that you know is false (not just showing an unusual price), then your presentation of that tag, with an implied or actual representation that the tag reflects the retailer's price and other details for the item, is a falsehood on your part.

If the retailer has multiple items on the shelf, and different examples show different prices, you have no reason to believe that any one tag is more accurate than another (most likely they were all accurate when the items were tagged) so unless there is a huge disparity (e.g. one item at $197.00 and the same item at $1.97) there is no falsehood involved in finding the item on the shelf with the lowest price, and buying it.

I would reiterate - you have to know that the tag is the wrong tag, and you have to intend to have the store rely on what you know to be false, for there to be a consequence to you.

Matt

All well and good, but how does anybody know what is in your head? Since nobody can, it is a matter of personal ethics, good or bad. If an item is simply priced incorrectly with no active malfeasance on your part (switching a tag, etc.), and sold to you in error at that price, that's the store fault where the rubber hits the road, not yours. An honest person who suspected an error would point it out, but a retailers error isn't a buyers fault.

DanielStone · Sep 19, 2009

dpurdy said:
I think of this question a lot. You go to a garage sale and a little old lady has a pristine Rollei wide for 50 dollars. Or it is unmarked and you ask how much and she says she is not sure. Do you say well it is probably worth at least 25 dollars. Or do you say well you could probably get 4000 for it on ebay. I think I give her a price that is as much as I could pay... like 200 dollars. woooooo hooooo. Nah I would tell her the truth.
Dennis

i wouldn't

call me cold-hearted, but if i offered her the 50 bucks, and she bit, I'd be well off, and she'd be 50 dollars richer. Win-win for both sides. I wouldn't sell it if I had too though, so getting 4K for it on flea-bay doesn't enter into the question for me

-dan

dpurdy · Sep 19, 2009

I have changed my mind. If a person would rather guess a value than do a bit of research, then the gamble is theirs and the reward is mine.
Dennis

k_jupiter · Sep 19, 2009

It's all about attitude. If you are a 55yo widow selling off your husband's stuff, it looks like you need some help recovering from his obsession, and you have no idea where to start (thinking about my partner in this case), then yes, I'll offer to help sort it all out. I have close to 50 cameras of all ages, conditions, etc. If I bite the bullet tomorrow, she will be in a pickle figuring out what's there and what it's worth. I personally would hate to see the Deardorff V8 go for 150 bucks.It would not be fair to her seeing as she will be responsible for clearing up the mess I have made in my life.

But, you being Joe Bozo, just selling off Grandpa's things with no regard to what you have, I'll walk out with the Z-I Super Ikonta for 25 bucks. In a heartbeat.

And Matt, here in California, if it's marked wrong, you still get it for that price. It's the law. If you depend on making your money by hiring incompetent labor because it's cheaper.. well you made a business decision. Do I feel sorry for the poor clerk? Hell no. it's not his money, and no, he won't get fired.. That doesn't mean I haven't walked into a mom and pop store, looked a price on something and told them they made a mistake. That's the kind of guy I am. I am also the kind of guy who will look at every item on the shelf to see if there is one or more marked lower. And if the they scan the UPC code and it doesn't match the price on the sticker or the price on the shelf, I am ON it. big time.

tim in san jose

mpirie · Sep 19, 2009

MattKing said:
It doesn't matter what the store is doing - if you present an item to a cashier with a price tag on it that you know is false (not just showing an unusual price), then your presentation of that tag, with an implied or actual representation that the tag reflects the retailer's price and other details for the item, is a falsehood on your part.

In the event of a store having two of the same item with different prices, but in this case, one higher than it should be (say a sticker price of $200 for a $20 item) and you picked up the $200 item, would the store stop you from buying it and charge you $20 or advise you of the mistake?

I doubt it. If they did, they would be exposing either their corrupt or inept practices.

In one store I used to frequent, we would regularly look to the rear of the items on display and find cheaper versions because the newer items at the front had seen a price increase which the store passed on to the customers.

With regards to the OP, I'd assess each case as it happened.

Mike

Chris Nielsen · Sep 19, 2009

I've never had the opportunity to pick up something at a garage sale or similar for dirt cheap, the closest I have had would be this morning when I picked up $400 of filters for $60 (USD$45) from my local camera store that's closing. But she knew the value so I don't feel guilty at all, just completely stoked!

Krzys · Sep 19, 2009

Im still waiting for the $30 garage sale 'I think its a Leica or something' moment.

removed-user-1 · Sep 19, 2009

dpurdy said:
I think of this question a lot. You go to a garage sale and a little old lady has a pristine Rollei wide for 50 dollars. Or it is unmarked and you ask how much and she says she is not sure. Do you say well it is probably worth at least 25 dollars. Or do you say well you could probably get 4000 for it on ebay. I think I give her a price that is as much as I could pay... like 200 dollars. woooooo hooooo. Nah I would tell her the truth.
Dennis

I agree, I'd say something like, "Do you know what this is worth?!" before I even thought about it - if somebody at a yard sale has something really amazing, I'm probably not buying it myself anyway.

These days I usually see the opposite at such sales; somebody with a Time magazine "free 35mm camera" who wants $50 for it...

dentkimterry · Sep 19, 2009

I found a Pentax K1000 and three Pentax brand lenses at a garage sale, some years ago maybe 15 for $25, an incredibly cheap price at the time. Took them to my local camera store to show them feeling kind of bad about the deal. The owner of the store said not to feel bad. "you should benefit from your knowledge" he said. The car mechanic benefits from his knowledge of how to fix your car, so does the plumber, the doctor and all other trades. Sounded good to me!

jolefler · Sep 19, 2009

This is me....

JBrunner said:
A widow selling of a husbands gear, well she will get my honest help and advice. A guy in a McMansion with a bunch of toys, not so much.

well said, Jason!

Jo

Mike1234 · Sep 19, 2009

When I said I always tell the truth... I lied. I have bought underpriced items but usually from people who I was sure did the same in order to re-sell that item. Turnabout is fair play, as is said. If someone was selling a deceased family member's items I always asked them if they knew they were selling it underpriced. If they knew and were just dumping things to get rid of them I bought. As another here mentioned it's situational to be determined by the individual. For many that's grab as quickly as one can without regard to the widow selling her husband's things because she can't pay her bills. I just happen to disagree with that sentiment.

pentax4ever · Sep 19, 2009

I don't bother trying to educate casual sellers. There are many resources now readily available to people for investigating and pricing almost any collectible. If the asking price is under what I consider to be the fair market value, I pay the money and don't haggle. Usually. If it is over, I will try to get the price down to what I consider to be reasonable.

Sirius Glass · Sep 19, 2009

PeteZ8 said:
This may be the only time I ever agree with you, write this down on your calander.

I know in my post above I said "no regrets" but there are, obviously, times when judgement comes into play. The widow who recently lost his/her SO and needs to offload their things to pay bills, etc.

Don't let it happen again! It could become a habit.

You have been warned!

Steve

Steve Smith · Sep 20, 2009

I go to a lot of yard sales and car boot sales. Often when I ask the price of something which is not marked up I get the reply "make me an offer".

I absolutely refuse to do this and say "you're selling it, what do you want for it?". If a price is still not given, I walk away.

This is my failing as I am hopeless at bargaining. My brother is the complete opposite and he will regularly go to see something advertised for sale with half the asking price in cash in his pocket. Nine times out of ten, he gets the item.

Steve.

david_mizen · Sep 20, 2009

putting my 9-5 day job hat on the basic principle of contract law is invitation to treat offer, acceptance, consideration

the sticker price is an invitation to treat = invitation to haggle or negotiate

the sticker price is what it is - if thats the price thats paid fair enough or if both parties are happy with the negotiated price particularly so in a charity shop or fair but in a retail shop beware invoices with e&oe on them because translated it means errors or omissions excepted and ive known of at least one large retailer i deal with to get heavy handed when a customer has tried to take advantage of an error in description or price - fraud can occur and fraud is criminal. My recollect is that our (australian) definition of stealing includes errors in over the counter transactions. Dont ever change the sticker price on an object for that reason.

PhotoJim · Sep 20, 2009

Steve Smith said:
I absolutely refuse to do this and say "you're selling it, what do you want for it?". If a price is still not given, I walk away.

I guarantee that if you walk away, you won't buy the item.

It always pays to negotiate on items where negotiation is possible. I remember shocking a friend of mine at a used camera store in Edmonton a few years ago. A black Nikon FE was in the display case with a price (I forget how much). I asked the sales clerk, after inspecting the camera, if she could do anything and she said she'd call the manager on the phone. A few minutes later, she offered me a $25 discount.

At the time I was happy to pay the full price, but I got $25 off for little effort.

If the seller won't give you a price, make a low but fair offer given your knowledge of the item. If you can't afford a low but fair offer, offer what you can but preface it with "I don't know what you think it's worth, but the most I can afford to pay for it is $xxx". That way the pricing isn't personal - you're not seeming to gouge, you're expressing your ability to afford the item which is a completely different issue from what the item is worth.

Miskuss · Sep 20, 2009

"But what if you had the opportunity to make a steal? Say a garage sale, with a lens sitting there for $20 that you know goes for $350 on eBay.

Do you tell them? Do you take advantage?[/QUOTE]"

If good fortune smiles upon you, why question it. Drop the 20 and enjoy it, guilt free.

BrianShaw · Sep 20, 2009

Steve Smith said:
I go to a lot of yard sales and car boot sales. Often when I ask the price of something which is not marked up I get the reply "make me an offer".

I absolutely refuse to do this and say "you're selling it, what do you want for it?". If a price is still not given, I walk away.

Not me, at least I don't walk away any more. Once upon a time, at a boot sale somewhere in Yorkshire I saw a camera part I really, really wanted. I asked "how much" and the chap said "make me an offer." So I said, "no, really, how much would you take?" He said 5 pounds... which I quickly forked over. The part was worth 10x to me. He looked at me and said something like "I'm ripping you off; is that OK with you?" Then he looked at his buddies and made some comments that I can only believe were snide and demeaning of Americans, but since I'm not fully fluent in the Yorkshire language I can't be sure.

Now I offer $1, or if in Yorkshire... 1 pound, and go from there. Often that kind of offer gets the seller to really say what was on their mind.

Mike1234 · Sep 20, 2009

Yeah... okay... we're all tired of getting scrooed. Does that make it right for us all to behave in the same way? Not IMO. If those who take advantage of others without any regard to a sense of decency can sleep at night then let them do as they will. I just can't. But as I said before this is why I'm broke. I choose to be this way and won't change.

EASmithV · Sep 20, 2009

Is going to a different gas station to get cheaper gas stealing?

Mike1234 · Sep 20, 2009

What does that have to do with this discussion? See.. this is what I mean... not many people in USA society today can even understand the concept of common decency. We're so wrapped up in "what's in it for me" that we don't care "what it costs you".

Stealing

Perry Way

MattKing

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Perry Way

MattKing

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JBrunner

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DanielStone

dpurdy

k_jupiter

mpirie

Chris Nielsen

Krzys

removed-user-1

dentkimterry

jolefler

Mike1234

pentax4ever

Sirius Glass

Steve Smith

david_mizen

PhotoJim

Miskuss

BrianShaw

Mike1234

EASmithV

Mike1234

Stealing

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