Stealing their souls

Alan Edward Klein · Jun 3, 2022

darr said:
It can be looked upon as an invasion of privacy, or sometimes something more deviant.
Hey, I'm a photographer and I do not like strangers snapping pictures of me and whoever I may be with going about our lives.
Why in hell do they want photos of us? Creepy ideas can enter folks minds.

I recently had an engineer sent by my insurance company walking throughout my home snapping way too many pictures that to me was "overkill."
After 30-45 minutes of this behavior and in a room full of valuables, I asked him to stop, and said, "why are you taking pictures of all our stuff?"
His said he was trying to get an idea of the size of the rooms. I then offered my Bosc laser distance measure for use at which he looked shocked, and used it.
Engineer without his tools? Hmmm ... even this photographer has one of them.

Anyhow, the guy was weird and I felt like he was setting our home up for a robbery, and reported how I felt to the insurance adjuster.
My point is, people can be WEIRD!! And this woman knows it and my girlfriends feel the same way; stop taking pictures of us going about our lives without permission.
I do not do street photography because I feel it is an invasion of privacy if people I do not know will be in the frames.

I worked for my state's department of children and family as a counselor for a couple of years.
You would not believe what strangers and neighbors (and family members) get caught doing to children.
The amount of child porn reported daily might surprise people.

I know you guys are not doing any of this crap (at least I hope not), but the general public in the US knows about weird people and sexual predators.
Walking around shooting photos of people you do not know will eventually get you noticed for the wrong reasons.
My two cents and I know you all do not want to hear it.

The amount of child abuse is pretty astounding. These facts were not understood decades ago to the degree it was happening. I think parents and people in general have gotten shocked into nervousness about photographers and other strangers. When I was a kid, my parents thought nothing about where I went, even on my own. I mean I lived in NYC and would get on a subway or bus by myself and just go, although once some creep grabbed me in my privates in a crowded subway car. I was shocked and too embarrassed to tell anyone at the time. Then in 1979 a little boy named Etan Patz in Manhattan disappeared walking to the bus stop two blocks away. He was the first kid on a milk carton. NYC was abuzz as was the nation for weeks. Today, parents worry about these things.

Etan Patz - Crime Museum

Etan Patz, a 6-year-old boy from Manhattan, NY, disappeared after walking the two blocks to his bus stop alone for the first time on May 25, 1979. When he didn’t return home from school that afternoon, his parents Julie and Stanley reported him missing. Despite a massive nationwide search...

www.crimemuseum.org

Don_ih · Jun 3, 2022

darr said:
Ask people if they mind being photographed.

That is fine if you want pictures of particular people but is no good if you are trying to document or represent a scene or ethos. Not everyone taking pictures of "strangers" is taking pictures of those particular people. For the most part, the humans that populate good street photos of the past (and present) are not individuals, but are generalized. It doesn't have to be that particular guy standing against the wall, it could be anyone.

Brian B Bednarek · Jun 3, 2022

KerrKid said:
Why is it that strangers act like you're stealing their souls with your magic box when you take their picture?

Most would be flattered if they caught you sketching or painting a picture of them, but take a photograph of them? Oh no.

What is the deal with this?

I think that in a social media world, many people are worried about their image and want to make sure it's not used for nefarious purposes!!! I don't think it was as big an issue 30 years ago!!!

KerrKid · Jun 3, 2022

I tend to freeze up when I know someone is taking a photograph of me. I'm just self-conscious. How am I going to look in the photograph? Stupid? So, I treat everyone else like they feel the same. I don't take voyeur-type photos as a rule. I'm not an aggressive or pushy person so I can't imagine shoving a camera in someone's face. Maybe that's why I'm more comfortable taking pictures of things rather than people, but I'd like to get better at taking photos of people. I'm more interested in approaching people and saying the right things to put them at ease and allowing me to create a good photograph.

I owned the largest security camera company in SW Florida and installed quite a few spy cameras. I'm not self-conscious with security cameras for some reason. I guess it depends a great deal on intent with photography.

When I was the service manager at a large pest control company, we had a hard and fast rule that our techs did not take photos of customers' homes or even comment on anything they had. If I was filling in for one of my techs and had to run his route, I asked the homeowner to follow me around "so I didn't miss anything". What I was really doing was deliberately making the customer feel more comfortable with having a stranger in every nook and cranny of their home. Believe me, it was tempting to take photos due to how beautiful some of the ranch settings were or comment on some of the amazing things they had in their home, but we did not do it. The one tech who took a few pix outside someone's house had a customer complaint very quickly. Of course, it depended on the customer and your relationship with them. Some were like family and talking about their ray gun collection for an hour wasn't out of place.

pentaxuser · Jun 3, 2022

MattKing said:
The other thing you can try is sneaking up to them when they have their head buried in something
View attachment 307144

Well better you than me, Matt. That guy looks dangerous. The kind you see playing cards in the Malamute Saloon

pentaxuser

Tel · Jun 3, 2022

I had a revelation the other day--people with dogs don't seem to mind being photographed as long as the dog is in the frame too. I'm thinking maybe a series of dog/human street portraits might be in order.

Patrick Robert James · Jun 3, 2022

I just follow the golden rule- Treat others as you want to be treated. I don't like people photographing me, so I don't photograph others without their permission. Pretty simple.

I remember when the whole "street" thing was big more than a decade ago. The people that followed that ethos were very aggressive. Bruce Gilden was a hero to them. I think Bruce Gilden is an ass and his pictures are of dubious quality. I'm real surprised he hasn't had his block knocked off. The real problem is he thinks he has the right to do that. Not to mention the photos he shows have more of a voyeuristic quality to them because he seems to favor images of the unfortunate. It really is a form of exploitation.

MattKing · Jun 3, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Well better you than me, Matt. That guy looks dangerous. The kind you see playing cards in the Malamute Saloon

pentaxuser

Dangerous? Could be.
He also records videos and posts links to them here on Photrio!
So clearly he must be up to no good.

Nicklop · Jun 3, 2022

People are sensitive, main character syndrome, idk

logan2z · Jun 3, 2022

Tel said:
I had a revelation the other day--people with dogs don't seem to mind being photographed as long as the dog is in the frame too. I'm thinking maybe a series of dog/human street portraits might be in order.

Not really a portrait because I was standing behind the man and his dog when I shot it and they were unaware of the camera. But I'll use your mention of 'people with dogs' as an excuse to post the shot since I like it - and dogs

Vaughn · Jun 3, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
Curious if anyone ever had their photo bag stolen while their head was under the cloth?

Early 90s...I had walked around the back of a Mission, then around again to the front and set the camera up...composed the image on the GG...bent down to get my light meter and no pack anywhere. I was under the darkcloth a long while, but had heard nothing. My mind was going a mile a minute.

Finally in clicked...I had left the pack on a hill after taking a photo and had walked off with the camera on the pod. Walked back up the hill and there it was. The B&W image was taken froms where I left the pack (5x7 semi-successful salt print).

On the topic...this is about how intrusive as I like to get (Color image: San Francisco, ca1999, Rolleiflex, RA4 print). There is also someone in the B&W image. At this distance, their souls have spread out so much (inverse square of the distance law or whatever), that the camera only captures an insignificant amount of their souls.

logan2z · Jun 3, 2022

darr said:
I couldn't agree more.
After looking at some of Gilden's work online just now (never heard of him before), I never want to be photographed by him!
He definitely likes pushing a ghoulish look.

I like some of Gilden's earlier work, like the stuff from Haiti and Coney Island. His more recent 'in your face' style is not my cup of tea.

Don_ih · Jun 3, 2022

darr said:
Maybe the skills are getting harder to master with street photography

Everyone is aware there is an outlet for these photos, now. Even 20 years ago, if someone was taking pictures of people walking down the street, no one would ever imagine those photos would be seen by anyone at all. Of course, now, most of the photos are still seen by no one but everyone assumes the picture will be plastered online forevermore. Finding that would be like finding a particular blade of grass on a gold course.

Bruce Davidson's Brooklyn Gang series is kind of "street" photography, but the group was aware of him. The character of those photos, I think, is what people who do street photography dream of getting - but without the work of getting in far enough with the group to be trusted.

Walking around and taking pictures of whatever interests you is opportunistic. That doesn't make it wrong. Exploiting people for something beyond their control (Gilden's photos are mostly of people he thinks look odd), that is getting pretty murky.

ic-racer · Jun 3, 2022

I may be incorrect but isn’t one of the most common fates of photographs these days to be digitized end sent to a computer with internet access? Maybe people don’t want their face available to download from the internet.

Clearview AI made news in early 2020 when The New York Times revealed that the company regularly ran its recognition software against a database of photos scraped from sources across the internet, including social media, news sites, and employment sites.

logan2z · Jun 3, 2022

Don Heisz said:
Bruce Davidson's Brooklyn Gang series is kind of "street" photography, but the group was aware of him.

Maybe splitting hairs to some degree, but I would consider that documentary photography, rather than 'street' photography. Very different circumstances, as you point out.

Alan Edward Klein · Jun 3, 2022

KerrKid said:
I tend to freeze up when I know someone is taking a photograph of me. I'm just self-conscious. How am I going to look in the photograph? Stupid? So, I treat everyone else like they feel the same. I don't take voyeur-type photos as a rule. I'm not an aggressive or pushy person so I can't imagine shoving a camera in someone's face. Maybe that's why I'm more comfortable taking pictures of things rather than people, but I'd like to get better at taking photos of people. I'm more interested in approaching people and saying the right things to put them at ease and allowing me to create a good photograph.

I owned the largest security camera company in SW Florida and installed quite a few spy cameras. I'm not self-conscious with security cameras for some reason. I guess it depends a great deal on intent with photography.

When I was the service manager at a large pest control company, we had a hard and fast rule that our techs did not take photos of customers' homes or even comment on anything they had. If I was filling in for one of my techs and had to run his route, I asked the homeowner to follow me around "so I didn't miss anything". What I was really doing was deliberately making the customer feel more comfortable with having a stranger in every nook and cranny of their home. Believe me, it was tempting to take photos due to how beautiful some of the ranch settings were or comment on some of the amazing things they had in their home, but we did not do it. The one tech who took a few pix outside someone's house had a customer complaint very quickly. Of course, it depended on the customer and your relationship with them. Some were like family and talking about their ray gun collection for an hour wasn't out of place.

I follow the service techs around to make sure "I don't miss anything" Well, just my suspicious nature as I'm from NYC where everyone has two locks on their doors.

People are more comfortable with security cameras because there are no people aiming them. They're static and not picking on anyone in particular. That's a lot different when a stranger aims one at only you.

Don_ih · Jun 3, 2022

logan2z said:
Maybe splitting hairs to some degree, but I would consider that documentary photography, rather than 'street' photography. Very different circumstances, as you point out.

That's why I said "street" in quotes. They have a "street" look while being embedded documentary photography.

Alan Edward Klein · Jun 3, 2022

Tel said:
I had a revelation the other day--people with dogs don't seem to mind being photographed as long as the dog is in the frame too. I'm thinking maybe a series of dog/human street portraits might be in order.

The near dog was mine expressing total non-interest in the other people's dog who apparently had a thing about him. Of course, this was at a dog fair which made the photography easier. That brings up a point. If you're shooting at an event, it's less intrusive I guess because people expect it. Less so on the street where no one is connected.

I'm not interested. by Alan Klein, on Flickr

Alan Edward Klein · Jun 3, 2022

Vaughn said:
Early 90s...I had walked around the back of a Mission, then around again to the front and set the camera up...composed the image on the GG...bent down to get my light meter and no pack anywhere. I was under the darkcloth a long while, but had heard nothing. My mind was going a mile a minute.

Finally in clicked...I had left the pack on a hill after taking a photo and had walked off with the camera on the pod. Walked back up the hill and there it was. The B&W image was taken froms where I left the pack (5x7 semi-successful salt print).

On the topic...this is about how intrusive as I like to get (Color image: San Francisco, ca1999, Rolleiflex, RA4 print). There is also someone in the B&W image. At this distance, their souls have spread out so much (inverse square of the distance law or whatever), that the camera only captures an insignificant amount of their souls.

Those lions remind me of Patience and Fortitude, the two eleven foot lions in front of the main NYC Public Library on Fifth Avenue and 42nd Street. Been there since 1911.

Patience & Fortitude: NYPL's Lions Through the Years

Patience and Fortitude, the world-renowned pair of marble lions that stand proudly before the majestic Beaux-Arts building at Fifth Avenue and 42nd Street in Manhattan, have captured the imagination and affection of New Yorkers and visitors from all over the world since they were placed on their...

www.nypl.org

Alan Edward Klein · Jun 3, 2022

When I had my dog with me, it was always easier to approach strangers to get the shot.

Woof by Alan Klein, on Flickr

VinceInMT · Jun 3, 2022

I just returned from Italy where, among other things, I visited the Uffuzi museum in Florence. On entry one of the signs indicates that it’s OK to take pictures of the art but not OK to take pictures of the people.

VinceInMT · Jun 3, 2022

We’ve discussed this before in the context of photographing children in public places.

I wonder if the gender of the photographer has an influence of the subject’s reaction?

Moose22 · Jun 3, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
Curious if anyone ever had their photo bag stolen while their head was under the cloth?

One reason I don't like Domke is it does not zip.

I know from experience in some places people will reach in hoping to grab a goodie, so if I have a bag in such a place I have it over my shoulder and zipped up to make it harder.

As for the specific experience, in Rome, one of the kids was hanging around too closely. I just knew he was going to go for something, so my bag was zipped closed. Not that there was anything in there but a filter and a blower for cleaning. But he actually tried to pick my pocket while I was lifting the camera to my eye. I felt him trying and punched him on the wrist so hard I'm surprised I didn't break it. He starts screaming, his handlers get all aggressive and threaten to call the cops, so I start yelling for the police and they all run away. Cops know who all the pickpockets are at tourist sites.

I never don't go anywhere with a camera, but in some environments zippers and and watchful eye are good. I'd never put my head under a cloth in a place crowded with folks who scam tourists unless I had someone watching my back.

Moose22 · Jun 3, 2022

Tel said:
I had a revelation the other day--people with dogs don't seem to mind being photographed as long as the dog is in the frame too. I'm thinking maybe a series of dog/human street portraits might be in order.

I do this often. I ask to take a portrait and then take a picture of the dog.

But as often as not, the dog owner will try to help. Get the dogs attention or often pose with the dog. I kind of wish they didn't, as my favorite dog (and children) shots are when the owner is ignoring me but the dog or child is staring. It is a personal things, dogs love me and even some non-social dogs will want to visit with me, surprising their owners. So the dog staring while the rest of the world ignores me is, literally, my vision of the world.

Same is true of cats, though people don't take their cats for a walk. Babies and Toddlers are always staring. Difference there is that I actually like dogs, but I take the same sorts of photos of each:

Even for regular street photos, dog people are happier when I'm taking pics, even if I don't ask explicitly. They just seem happy someone else thinks their pet is adorable for the most part.

Alan Edward Klein · Jun 3, 2022

I never had a dog get angry when I took its picture.

Stealing their souls

Alan Edward Klein

Etan Patz - Crime Museum

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Brian B Bednarek

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