Static Discharge on film in camera

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 12, 2018

One upside of a ruined negative is that it can make a useful post on Photrio. I couldn't turn up another thread on this topic, though I'm sure there must be examples buried in some thread with a title like "What's this stuff on my negs?"

This is about the clearest example I've seen of static discharge on the negative, occurring most likely in the camera. I'd have thought I was immune from this problem in our relatively humid subtropical climate, particularly when shooting right on the beach, but we've been having some unusually cool weather, and maybe it's reduced the humidity in the air.

It's between the last two frames, so it's unlikely to have happened before the film was loaded or to be the result of triboluminescence from the tape attaching the film to the backing paper, which is at the other end of the roll.

The camera is a medium format Noblex 150 that shoots a 60x120mm panoramic image, so presumably the static is from the rotating drum, which is a known issue with these cameras, just not a problem I've experienced before. The film is Adox CHS 100, developed in ABC pyro 1+1+1+12.

And, yeah, those people out there on the water are doing yoga on paddleboards.

AgX · Mar 12, 2018

Some films have special antistatic features. For instance current Agfa films.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 12, 2018

AgX said:
Some films have special antistatic features. For instance current Agfa films.

Good point. Kodak also makes an anti-static layer.

AgX · Mar 12, 2018

There are different approaches to gain antistatic (or just reduce static...?) The Agfa approach to me seems the most effect, in theory.

Yes, we saw such static induced artefacts here at Apug, but rarely and never anything as comparing films in a test, only some remarks on handling after processing.
And Honolulu was a not a place I would have expected static artefact to appear...

David A. Goldfarb said:
The camera is a medium format Noblex 150, so presumably the static is from the rotating drum, which is a known issue with these cameras,

Interesting. Never heard that before
Is the drum from plastic?
(But it does not touch the film anyway, the films rest agains guides that make part of the body. Material?)

AgX · Mar 12, 2018

In the past static artefacts had been described by the industry in their collections of artefacts. But the one and only recent industry publication I remember referring to this issue is the Kodak guide on photography in arctic conditions.

guangong · Mar 12, 2018

AgX said:
In the past static artefacts had been described by the industry in their collections of artefacts. But the one and only recent industry publication I remember referring to this issue is the Kodak guide on photography in arctic conditions.

That’s exactly what I was thinking. No cold winters in Hawaii. Static usually caused by advancing very cold film too fast so on bitterly cold days I always advance film very slowly.

Could Hawaiians be similar to Floridians? Some of the coldest winters I have experienced are the interiors of houses during summers in Florida.

AgX · Mar 12, 2018

It is not only a matter of temperature, but of the supply of water too, thus at freezing and in a hot desert you may have same relative humidity.

Also, as David hinted at, it is a matter of speed of charging: the higher that is the more conductive surfaces must be.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 12, 2018

David A. Goldfarb said:
View attachment 196869

One upside of a ruined negative is that it can make a useful post on Photrio. I couldn't turn up another thread on this topic, though I'm sure there must be examples buried in some thread with a title like "What's this stuff on my negs?"

This is about the clearest example I've seen of static discharge on the negative, occurring most likely in the camera. I'd have thought I was immune from this problem in our relatively humid subtropical climate, particularly when shooting right on the beach, but we've been having some unusually cool weather, and maybe it's reduced the humidity in the air.

It's between the last two frames, so it's unlikely to have happened before the film was loaded or to be the result of triboluminescence from the tape attaching the film to the backing paper, which is at the other end of the roll.

The camera is a medium format Noblex 150 that shoots a 2.25x5" panoramic image, so presumably the static is from the rotating drum, which is a known issue with these cameras, just not an problem I've experienced before. The film is Adox CHS 100, developed in ABC pyro 1+1+1+12.

And, yeah, those people out there on the water are doing yoga on paddleboards.

the electrostatic discharge can happening while rewinding the film too fast.

AgX · Mar 12, 2018

One does not rewind rollfilm.

(But with type 135 that is an issue. Though we never discussed that.)

BMbikerider · Mar 12, 2018

I recall there was a lot of chit-chat about this in the mid 60's and a little later and it appears is not the winding on causes the static but the rewinding back into the cassette. When you consider that back in the 60's I cannot remember one camera had power rewind, but press boys used to rewind frenetically to get a new cassette inserted. They were the ones who were complaining. Most newer AF cameras come equipped with them as standard. My F6 is always rewound manually simply because I like to leave a bit of film sticking out of the cassette, so the problem has not affected me. (F4 & F5 models also offer manual rewind).

Why it was decided that it was the rewind action that caused the problem was that it never seemed to happen with medium format where the film went simply from one spool to another. Oddly enough there were never any mention of this happening where C41 (or C22) or slide film was concerned. Only B&W was affected.

Whilst we do get cold dry weather here in UK, especially where live, again the problem has never caused me an alarm.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 12, 2018

Interesting as the temperature and high humidity in Hawaii should prevent static.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 12, 2018

“Cold weather” by local standards means it can get down to 58 deg. F at night, but it’s at least in the mid 60’s by morning and probably above 70F at noon.

Indeed power rewind can be an issue with 35mm film, but this example is with 120 film, so there is no rewind, and the film advance is knob wind, so not particularly fast.

The Noblex 150 is a swing-lens camera like the Widelux. The film plane is semicircular, and there is a drum made of plastic and metal materials that spins the lens and shutter assembly to project the image through a slit that passes over the film. The drum takes a half revolution to get up to speed and then exposes the film while the lens faces the front of the camera. My guess is that the spinning drum is the source of the static.

You can read about Noblex cameras at http://www.noblexcanada.com/noblexproducts.htm

Sirius Glass · Mar 12, 2018

I have only had the problem in cold weather, dry weather and weather that is cold and dry. The only solution that I know is to advance the film slowly. I do not know what to do for cameras that automatically advance the film, for example my Nikon N75 and Nikon F100. My Hasselblads are manual advance, hence I do not have experience with cameras with motor drives, but I can use the exercise of advancing the film manually.

Poisson Du Jour · Mar 12, 2018

Yes, static 'spiders' are commonly reported on ZeroImage pinhole cameras, particularly affecting (peculiarly) ACROS 100.
And it's not dependent on any weather condition -- it has been found to occur just about all the time with just ACROS.
There is no and never has been an incidence of static affecting any film in my Pentax 67.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 13, 2018

Interesting that the solution seems to be to switch films, unless I want to carry a grounding rod along with my tripod with a wire running up to the tripod screw. Hammering the rod 8 feet into the earth before every shot could get a little cumbersome, eh? So I’ll save Adox for other uses, and take my stash of Agfa APX 100 out of the freezer for the Noblex. And when that runs out, I guess I’ll either go Tri-X or maybe FP4+. Ilford has a patent for an anti-static coating from 1972. Anyone know for sure whether Ilford film has an anti-static coating?

Poisson Du Jour · Mar 13, 2018

Give the inside of the camera a few wipes with Ilford's anti-static cloth. This soft orange wunderkind also works well for treating lightbox surfaces so that dust isn't picked up by negatives/slides or whatnot.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 13, 2018

Not a bad idea in any case.

Vaughn · Mar 13, 2018

I'll throw in another country and see you two. I did have some high humidity static discharges between sheets of 4x5 film (TMax100) while bicycling in New Zealand for several months -- lots of rain, lots of bumpy roads, film in the bag in the boxes, but still got bounced around. No thunderboldts like you got, though...more blotchy, acne-like. Ruined a few good negs.

Can you ground the camera/tripod -- attach a wire to it and have the other end on the ground?

AgX · Mar 13, 2018

In this thread alone I read more about static artefact incidents than I remember of all other Apug forums in the past.
Is this just lack of memory?

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 13, 2018

Vaughn said:
Can you ground the camera/tripod -- attach a wire to it and have the other end on the ground?

Possible, but might be too much to worry about for what so far has been a pretty rare phenomenon. As long as there are films that I like that use antistatic coatings, I think that's the best option.

One thing I wonder about is that when I last had the camera overhauled, Noblex Canada replaced the roller that transfers the motion of the DC motor to the drum with one made out of a new material that should last longer than the original part, which tended to deteriorate over time and splatter decomposed rubber bits around the camera's drive train. Maybe this new material is more prone to static buildup. Even if it is, I'd rather have the more durable part and figure out another solution for the static issue, since the cameras are out of production, and repair services and parts will become harder to come by over time.

Sirius Glass · Mar 13, 2018

AgX said:
In this thread alone I read more about static artefact incidents than I remember of all other Apug forums in the past.
Is this just lack of memory?

Shocking!! This is just shocking!

Vaughn · Mar 13, 2018

Perhaps some anti-static spray on that part then...

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 13, 2018

I’ll see if it happens again before opening it.

Mr Bill · Mar 13, 2018

David A. Goldfarb said:
Noblex Canada replaced the roller that transfers the motion of the DC motor to the drum with one made out of a new material that should last longer than the original part, which tended to deteriorate over time and splatter decomposed rubber bits around the camera's drive train. Maybe this new material is more prone to static buildup.

Could be. I don't know what the guts of the camera are like, perhaps it is acting in the manner of a small scale Van de Graaff generator? Metal parts can hold a charge for a while if there's no obvious way for it to bleed off. Presumably it could discharge to the film if they get close together.

If this is really a camera issue, the service center has probably been getting intermittent reports or questions; it may be worth touching base with them. I've chased down a number of static problems on film and it can seem a bit like black magic until you sort of learn how it works. You might play with some dummy film in the light, running through the camera and then see if the film attracts dust (if something else discharges to the film, then the film itself will be charged, at least for a short time). I think you'd be better off to touch base with the repair center first (don't ask for a conclusive answer, just whether or not they've been getting any calls asking about it). Best of luck.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 13, 2018

Yes, I’ll be checking in with him and seeing if he has any suggestions.

Static Discharge on film in camera

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