Standard film sizes - Why?

lxdude · Jul 11, 2013

Tom1956 said:
If it weren't for American innovation, the world would still be walking and using outhouses.

I'm as proud of American innovation as anyone. But Karl Benz invented the automobile. Modern flush toilets originated in England and their use became widespread there before it did in the US.

MattKing · Jul 11, 2013

How do you walk an outhouse?

lxdude · Jul 11, 2013

MattKing said:
How do you walk an outhouse?

Verrry carefully.

lxdude · Jul 11, 2013

brianmquinn said:
You tell em Tom.... The metric system is just down right Un-American.

Yeah, it originated in France.

removed account4 · Jul 11, 2013

eddie said:
We didn't invent the bicycle or the toilet.

neither did mr thomas crapper

lxdude · Jul 11, 2013

As a former machinist, I can assure you that having to deal with decimals and fractions like 23/32 (.7188) and 35/64 (.5469) is a genuine pain in the ass compared to metric. And then there are all the different threads per inch to deal with, compared to the simple metric thread pitches.

lxdude · Jul 11, 2013

jnanian said:
neither did mr thomas crapper

True dat. But he certainly helped popularize it, becoming quite flush as a result.

removed account4 · Jul 11, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Then how come other pano is 10x20 or 10x30?

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

hi stone

what other pano is those sizes ...
i haven't ever seen film or plate or camera sizes in the
sizes you listed .. but that isn't to say they don't exist
people pretty much invent any size they wanted ... ( and still do )

Gerald C Koch said:
Sometimes the size of things has an odd reason. The IBM punch card owes its size to the size of the US dollar bill at the time. The card actually predates the computer in this respect having been designed for a mechanical counting machine designed for the 1890 US census. Holders already existed for dollar bills so it was an easy size choice. So I doubt that the choice of 8x10 was a capricious one. The 4x5 format follows logically from the 8x10 format. It may be as simple as 8x10 being the size for glass panes.

hi jerry

i think you might be onto something
and traditional based paper sizes already existed ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_size#Traditional_inch-based_paper_sizes
===

removed account4 · Jul 11, 2013

lxdude said:
True dat. But he certainly helped popularize it, becoming quite flush as a result.

he did invent the ballcock (float) ... or at least perfected it ...

StoneNYC · Jul 11, 2013

jnanian said:
hi stone

what other pano is those sizes ...
i haven't ever seen film or plate or camera sizes in the
sizes you listed .. but that isn't to say they don't exist
people pretty much invent any size they wanted ... ( and still do )

hi jerry

i think you might be onto something
and traditional based paper sizes already existed ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_size#Traditional_inch-based_paper_sizes
===

Well I think the 35mm pano is that size, isn't also 6x12 ratio 10x20? And 6x17 = 10x30?

Like for prints, because prints came in the sizes the film were before enlargers existed?

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

brianmquinn · Jul 11, 2013

StoneNYC said:
The metric system was invented by communists? This is new to me LOL

Well it came from France and the current president, François Hollande, is a member of the Socialist Party. So there you have it.
That is why I shoot 2-1/4 inch film, not that silly 6cm stuff.

See for yourself.
Get a ruler with English and Metric units. Measure some 120 negatives. You will find they are closer to 2-1/4 inch then to 6 cm.

winger · Jul 11, 2013

However many sizes of film there were between 1900 and 1947, my great-grandfather used each and every one of them. And sometimes more than one at one event.

As a chemist, I used ours and metric systems pretty much at the same time. Reports had to be in inches and feet, but my notes were in metric. I'd rather measure something in units that I can count rather than using fractions of units.

I hope part of the OP's question is answered by the wiki link from jnanian - that's a good page.

Gerald C Koch · Jul 11, 2013

lxdude said:
Yeah, it originated in France.

Yes, right after the revolution when they lobbed off the head of one of the leading scientists of the time Antoine Lavoisier, the discoverer of the element oxygen. The US is already using the metric system in a backhanded sort of way. The inch has been redefined to be equal to exactly 2.54 centimeters. The same for the US pound whose definition is a bit messier.

strix1 · Jul 11, 2013

America we don't want any foreign rulers

mfohl · Jul 11, 2013

Regarding the original post, there is a nice book available from Barnes and Noble called "500 Cameras". It is a nice history of cameras from all over the world, and it is also a history of film sizes and formats. I found it to be a very enjoyable read.

-- Mark

PS - the nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them ...

lxdude · Jul 11, 2013

strix1 said:
America we don't want any foreign rulers

I recently bought a one-foot ruler. It was made in China.

StoneNYC · Jul 11, 2013

lxdude said:
I recently bought a one-foot ruler. It was made in China.

Well since China owns most of america now, it COULD have been made here and they are just calling it part of China now... LOL

Good news for us, we can start having a production economy again instead of this silly consumerist economy which is destined to fail.

removed account4 · Jul 12, 2013

Gerald C Koch said:
Yes, right after the revolution when they lobbed off the head of one of the leading scientists of the time Antoine Lavoisier, the discoverer of the element oxygen. The US is already using the metric system in a backhanded sort of way. The inch has been redefined to be equal to exactly 2.54 centimeters. The same for the US pound whose definition is a bit messier.

its funny ( not in a ha ha way ) that american scientists use metric and then convert things back to the english / inch system
unless they forget to, and lose the mars probe

===

stone when i said pano, i was referring to plate and film sizes, not enlargements ...
there aren't may enlargers that can enlarge a monster glass plate or sheet of film but a guy named tom yanul in chicago up until a few years ago
was enlarging 12x20 negatives
http://www.thomasyanul.com/lab.html

jrhilton · Jul 12, 2013

Tom1956 said:
Forty four year later and I believe all the flags on the moon are American.

Ironically taken there by a computer that was using metric units internally, which were then converted to imperial units for display. An amazing achievement none-the-less.

Back on the topic, 16"x10" and 10"x8" were common glass pane sizes on old pre-Edwardian sash windows, so I always wondered if that's where the idea for using 10"x8" came from, plus 10"x8" used to be a common paper size too.

summerbee · Jul 12, 2013

I can support that kodak could use any format just because you always had to send them the camera to have your roll developed and replaced by a new one.
It is also almost sure that first plate camera's plates were based on glasses that were already availeable on market...
what i could never get is why a 56 * 67 mm negative must be designed as 6*7 and 56 * 56 mm as 6*6... well, however a 120 roll is really 60mm tall.

Tom1956 · Jul 12, 2013

summerbee said:
I can support that kodak could use any format just because you always had to send them the camera to have your roll developed and replaced by a new one.
It is also almost sure that first plate camera's plates were based on glasses that were already availeable on market...
what i could never get is why a 56 * 67 mm negative must be designed as 6*7 and 56 * 56 mm as 6*6... well, however a 120 roll is really 60mm tall.

And 2 1/4 inch film is 2 3/8 inches wide, See how simple that is? All you need is the right ruler. And the right ruler is 12 inches long.

Ghostman · Jul 12, 2013

Tom1956 said:
If it weren't for American innovation, the world would still be walking and using outhouses. We use the measurement of the King's foot here, and the rest of the world can adopt OUR system or continued being fouled-up. Forty four year later and I believe all the flags on the moon are American. A lot of crashed un-manned hardware up there from other places.

I guess we can blame the Swedes for the 12 Hasselblads that were left on the moon.

lacavol · Jul 13, 2013

"mhofl" Or is the problem with standards is we have too many of them. We should have stuck with cubits.

JPD · Jul 13, 2013

Metric system film formats were used in Europe for a long time.

18x24cm 13x18cm 9x12cm 6,5x9cm 4,5x6cm for plates and sheet film.

6x9, 6x6, 6x4,5 for roll film.

But the sizes are approximations and not exact to the millimeter.

brianmquinn · Jul 13, 2013

lacavol said:
"mhofl" Or is the problem with standards is we have too many of them. We should have stuck with cubits.

I use old cameras with distance scale focus or close up lenses attatched. So I use Paces and Cubits all the time. The best thing is I ALWAYS have my ruler with me.

When using close up lenses;
In my hands I find a #1 diopter lens to set focus to 2 cubits. A #2 lens to one cubit.

PS I also use flashbulbs and know the number of paces I need for each type of bulb and F Stop.

Standard film sizes - Why?

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