Stand developing Aviphot 200 to tame contrast

[popdoc]

In extended dynamic range situations, I’m finding that the shadows suffer more than the “normal” films owing to the Aviphot’s curve. Usually HC 110 delivers a nice and balanced image. However if sunny, or flash supported location portraits, could be better. Pulling hasn’t worked well yet for me either.

Anyone doing stand development, and if so, what’s your experience?

Thanks!

 

[retina_restoration]

You'd be far better off adopting a divided developer treatment instead. The Thornton Two Bath developer handles contrasty films beautifully, supporting excellent shadow retention while also restraining the highlights, and providing great tonal separation throughout the middle values as well.
I've used Thornton on the Ferrania Orto and had exceptional results.

 

[popdoc]

Thx!

 

[popdoc]

As the Aviphot’s film base is super thin, making it super flimsy, can you use a rotary development system like a BTZS tube, or a Jobo with the split developer? If so, what allowances need to be made?

Thanks again for taking the time to help me!

 

[lamerko]

The Aviphot has it in two varieties - the PE1, which is sold on eBay by Indian sellers (and probably the Maco branded films). It is a 0.10 mm thick polyester film. In comparison, the Ilford HP5 Plus 120 has a base thickness of 0.110 mm.
The second version of Aviphot is PE0, with a thickness of 0.06 mm - that's really thin. Maybe you have some of that?

 

[Romanko]

The Thornton Two Bath developer handles contrasty films beautifully, supporting excellent shadow retention while also restraining the highlights, and providing great tonal separation throughout the middle values as well.

In my experiments with Kodak Technical Pan this developer produced the best results. I did not try reducing the concentration of Bath B which should further reduce contrast.

can you use a rotary development system like a BTZS tube, or a Jobo with the split developer? If so, what allowances need to be made?

Barry Thornton's Two Bath developer requires a special agitation mode: more active in Part A and gentle in Part B. I use 1 min. continuous at the start then 5 s each 30 s for part A; and 5 s initial then 5 s each 1 min. for part B (as per John Finch's recommendations). 4 min. + 4 min. development should be sufficient for Aviphot 200.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

As the Aviphot’s film base is super thin, making it super flimsy, can you use a rotary development system like a BTZS tube, or a Jobo with the split developer? If so, what allowances need to be made?

Thanks again for taking the time to help me!

I have been using BTZS tubes for 4x5 Rollei IR for years. I have a bunch of Aviphot 8x10 which the Rollei IR is from, that I plan to develop in 8x10 BTZS tubes.
I have also done plenty of stand/semi-stand (with Pyrocat-HD), which enhanced edge effects for than anything. I second the use of Thornton's 2-Bath. Make sure give the film plenty of exposure for the shadows.

 

[Nokton48]

Hi Popdoc, How goes it?

My intention with MinR is to make 18x24cm contact prints with a nice black border, on 8x10 paper.

SONY DSC by Nokton48, on Flickr

Here I'm contemplating cutting this it's just one cut. Jim Galli is a very helpful friendly Guy here, he showed me his cutting procedure in the dark

Anybody here try MECD4 with Aviphot? I've got the chems to make it, I see it flattens the MINR curve somewhat. Any users here? It's on my to-do list. Saw some nice results over on LFF.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Developer for Aviphot Pan 200

That's about a 30x enlargement from 35 mm, ie a print about 4 feet wide. Since my pile of silver gelatin prints has become rather large I am storing pics on Flickr Pro. The downside to that is you cannot stop others also blowing them up to excessive dimensions. I have not ascertained if what you...

www.photrio.com

I did try MeCD4 with Aviphot 200 and speculated that prints could be obtained on silver gelatin paper.
But my investigations of chemicals for low contrast progressed to the single bath re-useable CD4-LC and presently to the one shot TDLC-102.
They require either CD-4 or glycin in addition to the usual homebrew chemicals.

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

The Aviphot has it in two varieties - the PE1, which is sold on eBay by Indian sellers (and probably the Maco branded films). It is a 0.10 mm thick polyester film. In comparison, the Ilford HP5 Plus 120 has a base thickness of 0.110 mm.
The second version of Aviphot is PE0, with a thickness of 0.06 mm - that's really thin. Maybe you have some of that?

Agree. I have used both PE0 (Aviphot 40) and PE1 (Aviphot 200).


If you want to get more grey levels, suggest POTA developer. I use that on Aviphot 40. You lose one step of speed but you get lots of level of grey.

Currently using Aviphot 200 @200 with E-76 and getting results that I like

 

[popdoc]

PE

The Aviphot has it in two varieties - the PE1, which is sold on eBay by Indian sellers (and probably the Maco branded films). It is a 0.10 mm thick polyester film. In comparison, the Ilford HP5 Plus 120 has a base thickness of 0.110 mm.
The second version of Aviphot is PE0, with a thickness of 0.06 mm - that's really thin. Maybe you have some of that?

PE0 for sure!

 

[drew tanner]

I don’t know if this example is helpful, but this is a Cirkut panorama shot straight into the sunrise at Boynton Beach, Florida on Aviphot Pan 200 (PE1, expired 2014). I rated it around 100. BTZS-style rotary development for about 10 minutes in HC-110 dilution B. The range of tones measured around 1.6 on my densitometer from the sun and brightest clouds to the shadows among the rocks.

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

I don’t know if this example is helpful, but this is a Cirkut panorama shot straight into the sunrise at Boynton Beach, Florida on Aviphot Pan 200 (PE1) from 2014. I rated it around 100. BTZS-style rotary development for about 10 minutes in HC-110 dilution B. The range of tones measured around 1.6 on my densitometer from the sun and brightest clouds to the shadows among the rocks.
View attachment 371687 View attachment 371688

Now thats an impressive piece of negative.

 

[Nokton48]

I don’t know if this example is helpful, but this is a Cirkut panorama shot straight into the sunrise at Boynton Beach, Florida on Aviphot Pan 200 (PE1, expired 2014). I rated it around 100. BTZS-style rotary development for about 10 minutes in HC-110 dilution B. The range of tones measured around 1.6 on my densitometer from the sun and brightest clouds to the shadows among the rocks.
View attachment 371687 View attachment 371688

That's Wonderful! Impressive and Artistic

 

[JeffStar]

I don’t know if this example is helpful, but this is a Cirkut panorama shot straight into the sunrise at Boynton Beach, Florida on Aviphot Pan 200 (PE1, expired 2014). I rated it around 100. BTZS-style rotary development for about 10 minutes in HC-110 dilution B. The range of tones measured around 1.6 on my densitometer from the sun and brightest clouds to the shadows among the rocks.
View attachment 371687 View attachment 371688

BTZS is new to me, I have a Cirkut camera and would find it useful. What size tubes did you use. Can you give me some advice, I am in the UK. Thanks in advance.

 

[Nokton48]

I have all the chems to make the MECD4, I just need to get a Pyrex 1000ml measuring cup. Brown glass bottles from the Formulary are labeled A and B and ready to go. I'll use multiple Combiplans with light tight lids, I can do inversions if necessary. I have 100 sheets of precut 9x12cm (from the Guy in Russia) which will be a convenient size to shoot and test process.

I want to make up some of the Thorton Two Bath as well.

 

[Alan Johnson]

The MeCD4 thread was rather long and the change in recommended times got lost so here it is again in case you get thin negatives:

Developer for Aviphot Pan 200

It is the formula I was experimenting on in this thread, but if you are new to this it may not suit. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/developer-for-aviphot-pan-200.182434/page-9#post-2523945 I modified the times to 8m +8m 20C as mentioned in post 237. At the moment I am working on a single...

www.photrio.com

This calculator is useful for different temperatures:

Massive Dev Chart Film Development, Film Developing Database

www.digitaltruth.com

 

[drew tanner]

BTZS is new to me, I have a Cirkut camera and would find it useful. What size tubes did you use. Can you give me some advice, I am in the UK. Thanks in advance.

Hi Jeff. There are other threads here that plumb the depths of Beyond the Zone System. It has its adherents and detractors, Phil Davis’ book on the subject is definitely worth a read.

Since the Aviphot is expired and being used for terrestrial photography, rather than aerial, I found it helpful to run the series of film tests referenced in BTZS to get a handle on the film characteristics. Photography with the Cirkut uses a lot of film and developer, so I wanted to minimize waste from trial-and-error. Lately, I’ve tended to rate it at 64 in the Cirkut.

I use a 72” length of 4” black ABS plumbing pipe. I use threaded caps on the ends. One end has a 45-degree elbow to aid in pouring chemistry in and out. I made a roller base out of lumber and casters. Photo attached of the contraption sitting in the sink. The negative is carefully rolled lengthwise and inserted so the emulsion side is facing inward.

I’ll post some detailed instructions over on The panoramic/Cirkut threads.

 

[loccdor]

Try shooting it at 50 or 100, and developing for 100. The recipe I used was Rodinal 1+50 15 minutes 21.5C. I actually had to make the shadows darker in post, but the highlights didn't burn out.

This is at 50 with an R25 red filter. R25 is more of a 2-stop than a 3-stop filter with this film, which I did not realize, causing the extra exposure.

 

[JeffStar]

Hi Jeff. There are other threads here that plumb the depths of Beyond the Zone System. It has its adherents and detractors, Phil Davis’ book on the subject is definitely worth a read.

Since the Aviphot is expired and being used for terrestrial photography, rather than aerial, I found it helpful to run the series of film tests referenced in BTZS to get a handle on the film characteristics. Photography with the Cirkut uses a lot of film and developer, so I wanted to minimize waste from trial-and-error. Lately, I’ve tended to rate it at 64 in the Cirkut.

I use a 72” length of 4” black ABS plumbing pipe. I use threaded caps on the ends. One end has a 45-degree elbow to aid in pouring chemistry in and out. I made a roller base out of lumber and casters. Photo attached of the contraption sitting in the sink. The negative is carefully rolled lengthwise and inserted so the emulsion side is facing inward.

I’ll post some detailed instructions over on The panoramic/Cirkut threads.

Hi Drew, thanks for the information and the photo. I do not have access to a darkroom long enough to allow me to feed a 6+ foot long roll into a 6+ foot long tube. But it has me thinking. Is the roll of neg (I also bought some Aviphot from India) not likely to kink/fold/or get stuck trying to insert it???? I am going to make an attempt at this with a shorter length of negative, say 4 feet. It will be ""FUN"" I think. I have been hand rolling my film continuously backward and forward in a deep dish. Not ideal but manageable --- so far.

 

[drew tanner]

Hi Drew, thanks for the information and the photo. I do not have access to a darkroom long enough to allow me to feed a 6+ foot long roll into a 6+ foot long tube. But it has me thinking. Is the roll of neg (I also bought some Aviphot from India) not likely to kink/fold/or get stuck trying to insert it???? I am going to make an attempt at this with a shorter length of negative, say 4 feet. It will be ""FUN"" I think. I have been hand rolling my film continuously backward and forward in a deep dish. Not ideal but manageable --- so far.

You're welcome, Jeff. Yes, it is very easy to kink or put a dent in the negative when working with pieces of film at this size. Careful handling is critical. To help with this, I took a 2" piece of PVC pipe and covered it with a length of velvet from the fabric store. I used 3M Super 77 spray adhesive to attach the velvet to the pipe. I gently wrap the film around this to give it some support as I'm loading it into the larger 4" tube. Four feet of film would be an order of magnitude easier to handle than the 6-foot lengths I tend to shoot with the No. 10 Cirkut. Don't hesitate to message @jimgalli for advice as well. He's processed the Aviphot this way, too. Rolling film back and forth in a deep tray has been the preferred method of a lot of Cirkut photographers and certainly takes up less of a footprint. I've just been too clumsy to make it work without scratching up the negative and getting uneven development. Again, I'll post a video soon of my process over on the panoramic threads.