Stains

Robert Canis · Apr 4, 2022

Wold very much appreciate anyone's input on this, please.
This is an ongoing issue but occurs on almost every roll of 120 but only on the first and last 2-3 frames. Images attached. Appreciate the quality isn't terribly high but hope from them you can clearly see the marks which, when viewed using a loupe, are on the emulsion side.
The films are washed using the Ilford method plus a few more inversions and wetting agent using de-ionised. I've tried 1 drop, I've tried 20, I've hung vertically and hung diagonally and it's still occurring. Everything is kept clean and I use filtered water throughout. Have tried rewashing once I have noticed the marks when the negs are dry but they remain. Many thanks in advance.

Sirius Glass · Apr 4, 2022

Start with following the PhotoFlo mixing exactly to start and only modify later as necessary. Hang the film and let the water run off on its own, then take a paper towel and only touch the lowest corner of the film to draw off excess water. Never run your fingers over the film nor use a squeegee.

Robert Canis · Apr 4, 2022

Thank you for your advice, it's greatly appreciated. Curious, how would the paper towel help?

Andrew O'Neill · Apr 4, 2022

I'm having a hard time seeing the stains. Any chance you can provide us with higher quality images of the negatives?

Sirius Glass · Apr 4, 2022

Robert Canis said:
Thank you for your advice, it's greatly appreciated. Curious, how would the paper towel help?

The paper towel draws the water off the corner so that it is less likely for excess water to pool and leave marks on the film.

Lachlan Young · Apr 4, 2022

How fast are you drying the film? More details about the nature of the way the film is dried will help.

What I've found is that Ilfotol's dilution seems intended for filtered, not deionised water - and that it needs properly mixed - and carefully squeegeeing with fingers helps too (the film is plenty tough).

cliveh · Apr 4, 2022

You don't need wetting agent or PhotoFlo. Just use de-ionised water.

pentaxuser · Apr 5, 2022

I take it that initially you used the exact dilution that Ilford recommends and slosh the film in it to make sure that all the Ilfotol gets to all the film? The right dilution is, I suspect, important. All I then do is lift the film out and draw my middle two fingers down the strip a couple of times then give it a shake and hang it up.

Where do you hang it up and is it in a drying chamber or simply hung in the open?

I have never used other than tap water to mix the Ilfotol and in 17 years have never noticed any problems

LIke Andrew I had difficulties seeing your problem. In fact I can only just see, I think, slight marks like drops that may nave dried on the second example. Better pics would really help That brings me to my last point. If what I see is dried drops on the film then can I ask is the film dried in ambient temperature or do you use a hear source to speed it up?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Robert Canis · Apr 5, 2022

cliveh said:
You don't need wetting agent or PhotoFlo. Just use de-ionised water.

Tried that. Left terrible water marks.

Robert Canis · Apr 5, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
negatives

Will try.

Robert Canis · Apr 5, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
The paper towel draws the water off the corner so that it is less likely for excess water to pool and leave marks on the film.

I see, thank you. That wouldn't account for stains left at the top of the film though.

Robert Canis · Apr 5, 2022

Lachlan Young said:
How fast are you drying the film? More details about the nature of the way the film is dried will help.

What I've found is that Ilfotol's dilution seems intended for filtered, not deionised water - and that it needs properly mixed - and carefully squeegeeing with fingers helps too (the film is plenty tough).

Drying is carried out in a steamed-up bathroom and left overnight. OK, thank you for the advice. Have tried with fingers and still get them.

Sirius Glass · Apr 5, 2022

cliveh said:
You don't need wetting agent or PhotoFlo. Just use de-ionised water.

Robert Canis said:
Tried that. Left terrible water marks.

That is what I would have expected. Kodak did not spend money on R&D to develop PhotoFlo as an exercise in wasting money and not did the other companies that manufacture surfactants.

Robert Canis · Apr 5, 2022

pentaxuser said:
I take it that initially you used the exact dilution that Ilford recommends and slosh the film in it to make sure that all the Ilfotol gets to all the film? The right dilution is, I suspect, important. All I then do is lift the film out and draw my middle two fingers down the strip a couple of times then give it a shake and hang it up.

Where do you hang it up and is it in a drying chamber or simply hung in the open?

I have never used other than tap water to mix the Ilfotol and in 17 years have never noticed any problems

LIke Andrew I had difficulties seeing your problem. In fact I can only just see, I think, slight marks like drops that may nave dried on the second example. Better pics would really help That brings me to my last point. If what I see is dried drops on the film then can I ask is the film dried in ambient temperature or do you use a hear source to speed it up?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Thank you for your help in this, it's much appreciated. I think I will start afresh with the suggested dilution first (everyone keeps saying just 1 or 2 drops!) and then work from there.

cliveh · Apr 5, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
That is what I would have expected. Kodak did not spend money on R&D to develop PhotoFlo as an exercise in wasting money and not did the other companies that manufacture surfactants.

How can de-ionised water leave water marks? It is free of calcium.

Sirius Glass · Apr 5, 2022

cliveh said:
How can de-ionised water leave water marks? It is free of calcium.

Since there is no surfactant the water, even de-ionized, can pool and still leave a stain. That is part of the reason the photochemical manufacturers invested money in developing surfactants.

cliveh · Apr 5, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Since there is no surfactant the water, even de-ionized, can pool and still leave a stain. That is part of the reason the photochemical manufacturers invested money in developing surfactants.

Perhaps photochemical manufacturers invested money in developing surfactants to make a profit? How can de-ionized water, even if pooled leave a stain?

Sirius Glass · Apr 5, 2022

cliveh said:
Perhaps photochemical manufacturers invested money in developing surfactants to make a profit? How can de-ionized water, even if pooled leave a stain?

The de-ionized water can pool if it is having problems evenly coating the negative or slide. Then a surfactant is needed. Some people have this problem and others do not. Here the OP has the problem and you do not. No one is wrong, just the local situation is different for some reason.

cliveh · Apr 5, 2022

The confusion could be in the way de-ionised water is used. I accept that tap water quality throughout the world is very variable. However, for the last 50 years or so, even in different locations, after the final wash I empty the tank and pour in de-ionised water to cover the spiral. I then twirl the spiral around in this de-ionised water for about 2 or 3 minutes and hang up to dry. In other words the last contact the film has with any liquid is de-ionised water. For the last 50 years or so I have had negatives with no drying marks. I rest my case, amen.

MattKing · Apr 5, 2022

Whatever water is used, you are probably drying your film in air.
And air can have lots of dust and dirt in it.
If there are pools/droplets of liquid on your film when you hang them to dry, that dust from the air can get into those droplets, and end up being deposited on the film when the droplets evaporate.
Using a surfactant helps limit the amount of water clinging to the film, and therefore limits the amount of dust and dirt from the air that may dry on to the film.

cliveh · Apr 5, 2022

MattKing said:
Whatever water is used, you are probably drying your film in air.
And air can have lots of dust and dirt in it.
If there are pools/droplets of liquid on your film when you hang them to dry, that dust from the air can get into those droplets, and end up being deposited on the film when the droplets evaporate.
Using a surfactant helps limit the amount of water clinging to the film, and therefore limits the amount of dust and dirt from the air that may dry on to the film.

I let my films dry in ambient temperature, with no drying cabinet blowing dust into the film. So why, If what you say is true, have I had spotless negatives for the past fifty years?

NB23 · Apr 5, 2022

You have hard water, it seems.

In general, these marks should wipe easily with a soft cloth and your breath, or some alchohol.

If anything, use more wetting agent so it disperses the water and any micro residue more effectively.

A very dry environment will cause this also.

At last, it this happens at the bottom of your hung films, this means it’s an accumulation from the whole length. If this is the case, do not change anything to your system but simply cut the film in half and hang to dry.

MattKing · Apr 5, 2022

cliveh said:
I let my films dry in ambient temperature, with no drying cabinet blowing dust into the film. So why, If what you say is true, have I had spotless negatives for the past fifty years?

You have relatively clean air. Not everyone does.

cliveh · Apr 5, 2022

MattKing said:
You have relatively clean air. Not everyone does.

Well, if what you say is true, I would welcome someone from say smog bound California trying my method and reporting back.

MattKing · Apr 5, 2022

cliveh said:
Well, if what you say is true, I would welcome someone from say smog bound California trying my method and reporting back.

Or even better, some place that is really dry and dusty.
There are lots of other variables. For me, in my environment, adding a surfactant to tap water works great. If I try some sort of specialized water, without surfactant, I get less desirable results.

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