Stains on print borders, but only when wet?

I recently made a few 16x20" prints, using fresh chemistry and double fixing baths. I'm not sure how fresh the first bath was, but the second bath was freshly mixed rapid fixer at film strength (1+4), I fix 45 s in each bath. My Dektol was less than a week old (the stock solution, my working solution was mixed for this session). The prints were washed for an hour in a large tank, but no HCA. I'm using Moersch MT5 for toning, mixed 1+9 from concentrate just before starting toning.

I tried toning these yesterday, and when the prints were in the toning bath stains (round looking, peppery and everywhere on the borders) started appearing. I was worried, and decided to re-fix the remaining prints (this time rapid fix, 1+9, 3 minutes) and washing them for 30 minutes before toning them. Before washing them in the tank I manually washed them under the faucet, 10 quick fill & dumps.

After re-fixing, the remaining prints toned ok, no stains on the borders. I then put them through a 10% sodium sulfite solution for 10 minutes, followed by a 45 minute wash. I'm hoping that the re-fixed prints will be OK now, otherwise I've wasted a lot of time.

When examining the prints today, the previously stained prints looks perfectly alright! I thought they would be stained permanently? Or what were the stains?

Anyone?

Have you done residual hypo tests on the prints that have been washed in your tank, to make sure the prints have been properly washed? That's all I can think of.

Could it be particulate in your chemicals that washes off in the wash?

Thomas Bertilsson said:

Have you done residual hypo tests on the prints that have been washed in your tank, to make sure the prints have been properly washed? That's all I can think of.

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No residual hypo test available :/ I will not use these prints since I don't really "trust" them, and I hope that the other prints will be decently washed now, after the sodium sulfite bath and additional washing.

MattKing said:

Could it be particulate in your chemicals that washes off in the wash?

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It's possible. At the end of the session I had some particulate in the toner (as expected for this toner when nearing exhaustion), but these were easy to see and the stains were different. Also, in that case I think I would have had more stains on the last prints, but I had no stains on them.

I hate mysteries...

The prints were most likely insufficiently washed prior to bein placed in the toner. Film strength fixer will put a lot of thiosulphate in the fibers of the paper and it doesn't wash out easily. I suspect you need a minimum of an hour wash since you don't use an HCA. If you have some sodium sulfite, soak the prints in a 5-10% solution of that prior to washing.

Jim Noel said:

The prints were most likely insufficiently washed prior to bein placed in the toner. Film strength fixer will put a lot of thiosulphate in the fibers of the paper and it doesn't wash out easily. I suspect you need a minimum of an hour wash since you don't use an HCA. If you have some sodium sulfite, soak the prints in a 5-10% solution of that prior to washing.

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And add a big handful of table salt. My understanding of wash aids is "almost anything" helps, but salt has (chemical-brainy-quote-here reasons about ions and bonding and so on) and is also dirt cheap and you can grab it at the grocery store. Salt and sodium sulfite are (again, my understanding) a great combo together. Sodium sulphite is used in canning and food and can be found cheaply in by-the-pound bags (vs. exotic photo chems).

I do take a pitcher of very hot water and dissolve the salt first. I've felt grains of salt in my wash water and they could certainly abrade a print when squeegieing or washing. Warm water also speeds the wash process, as does agitation or movement of the water.

Jim Noel said:

The prints were most likely insufficiently washed prior to bein placed in the toner. Film strength fixer will put a lot of thiosulphate in the fibers of the paper and it doesn't wash out easily. I suspect you need a minimum of an hour wash since you don't use an HCA. If you have some sodium sulfite, soak the prints in a 5-10% solution of that prior to washing.

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I think it was @RalphLambrecht who had a chapter in his book about film strength fixer for photo paper, to never fix more than a total of 2 minutes as the fixer becomes near impossible to wash out.

But the OP appears to be fixing for 45 seconds in his 2-bath fixer regimen, which is 1m30s total, way less than 2 minutes.

The actual washing, however, needs to be scrutinized. My prints are always washed under running water; I understand it's a process of slowly disappearing levels of fixer coming out of the paper fibers, and that the surrounding water needs to be fresh and mostly free of fixer for that process to work. I could be wrong, but with running water there is no risk of this being a factor at least.

Jim Noel said:

The prints were most likely insufficiently washed prior to bein placed in the toner. Film strength fixer will put a lot of thiosulphate in the fibers of the paper and it doesn't wash out easily. I suspect you need a minimum of an hour wash since you don't use an HCA. If you have some sodium sulfite, soak the prints in a 5-10% solution of that prior to washing.

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I normally use 20 g of sodium sulfite to 1 l of water, in my normal workflow. These prints were made in a community darkroom and I didn't bring any sodium sulfite with me.

As for the fixing, I've read all types of statements on fixing strength and time, and my impression is that film strength fixer and shorter times are good enough for me.

Thomas Bertilsson said:

I think it was @RalphLambrecht who had a chapter in his book about film strength fixer for photo paper, to never fix more than a total of 2 minutes as the fixer becomes near impossible to wash out.

But the OP appears to be fixing for 45 seconds in his 2-bath fixer regimen, which is 1m30s total, way less than 2 minutes.

The actual washing, however, needs to be scrutinized. My prints are always washed under running water; I understand it's a process of slowly disappearing levels of fixer coming out of the paper fibers, and that the surrounding water needs to be fresh and mostly free of fixer for that process to work. I could be wrong, but with running water there is no risk of this being a factor at least.

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These were washed in a large drum with running water, but they might have stuck together, making the washing a bit inefficient. After re-fixing, I washed each under the tap, fill & dump 10 times which might have been a good enough start (followed by 30 minutes in the same drum) that the prints wouldn't stain when toning them after that.

But where did the stains go after drying?