Staining development

haris · Aug 25, 2007

It is interesting to see how people who knows lots about something are having hard time to talk simple language when explaining things

Please don't get me wrong, I warmly welcome all yours contributions to this thread, but...

As completely ingorant about staining development, I hoped for simple answer like:

1. Staining developing is...

2. Reason for using it is...

And maybe next:

3. Way how to use it is...

4. Staining developers are...

5. Best films for it are (film size, not film model, I belive all b/w films are suitable for it, as I understand)...

But, those last three are optional because I simply wanted to know what it is, I don't plan to use it (atleast not) in near future

As I understand from answers in this thread, staining development is used to get finest grain as possibile, right?

Thank you all for answers you gave me.

Regards

Roger Hicks · Aug 25, 2007

It is interesting to see how people who knows lots about something are having hard time to talk simple language when explaining things

Please don't get me wrong, I warmly welcome all yours contributions to this thread, but...

As completely ingorant about staining development, I hoped for simple answer like:

1. Staining developing is...

Creating a stain, in proportion to the silver image

2. Reason for using it is...

Tonality, or searching for magic bullets

And maybe next:

3. Way how to use it is...

A developer that stains the emulsion at the same time it develops the silver. See 'Book of Pyro'

4. Staining developers are...

Whatever you want them to be -- useful tool, magic bullet...

5. Best films for it are (film size, not film model, I belive all b/w films are suitable for it, as I understand)...

The bigger the better, though I've seen superb 35mm FP4 in PMK (by Ed Buziak)
But, those last three are optional because I simply wanted to know what it is, I don't plan to use it (atleast not) in near future

As I understand from answers in this thread, staining development is used to get finest grain as possibile, right?

Wrong

Thank you all for answers you gave me.

Regards

jim appleyard · Aug 25, 2007

"As I understand from answers in this thread, staining development is used to get finest grain as possibile, right?"

Not necessarily. If I want fine grain, the first thing I do is to find a larger format. I would then go to a slower film, but in either case, proper exposure is essential.

I find the grain from staining devs to be different from those of a so-called "fine-grain" devs. I don't think the grain is smaller, but perhaps "smoother", "more even", "tighter"; it has a different look than say D-25.

IMHO, it's the complete package that makes staining devs unique; the grain pattern, tonal scale, controlled highlights, hardened neg, etc., without one being more important than the other.

palewin · Aug 25, 2007

Not sure if I can add anything new to this thread, other than to reinforce what some people have already posted. One choses a developer for a whole collection of reasons (tonality, grain structure, acutance, etc.) and as Sandy King pointed out, a number of these factors work at odds with each other, so in the end it is a matter of personal preference which "look" each of us wants. I use PMK on 4x5 and 120 (6x6) negatives (HP5+) because I prefer the look; I stick with D-76 for 35mm, because personally I found the grain distracting when I use PMK. But Gordon Hutchings, who developed PMK, feels it is an excellent 35mm developer - again, it depends on personal preference. Going back to the original question of "why use a staining developer," since "look" is an abstract answer, one concrete reason is that the proportional stain is something of a "self-mask" for highlights, meaning that stained negatives provide prints with a greater range of highlight values than non-stained negatives; of course I suspect that a well-exposed non-stained negative has the same values, but may require more manipulation to bring them out in the final print (i.e. I find stained negatives easier to print, but I can't say that holds true for everyone). By the way, one of the older issues of ViewCamera magazine had a panel discussion on staining developers, unfortunately I don't remember which issue it was; there might be a reference to the article on their web site.

Dave Miller · Aug 25, 2007

Returning to your original question I can only answer the "why", and "how" I use Prescysol, for I have very little chemical knowledge. I do not like grain, so I do everything I can to reduce it; hence my liking of this particular developer. It does it's job at the same time as maintaining full film speed. I usually use it with Ilford Delta 400. As for the how, well I bung all my films of whatever type and make in the same pot and give the recommended 10 1/2 minutes development. I often refer to it as the duffers zone system because I find my negs print with the minimum of manipulation.
Refer to my gallery for the type of pictures I indulge in.

Fotohuis · Aug 25, 2007

Here is a nice article about staining developers how and why using them:

http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/daten/pdf/TanolundCo.pdf

Hopefully the language is not a problem for you. Tanol, Tanol speed, Finol can be ordered easily in Germany or the Netherlands.

There are also pyro developers without stain. Normally very suitable with slow and medium speed films. An example is the Dutch AM50 developer from Amaloco, based on pyrocatechin. Super sharp, working on the surface only.

Important when using staining developers is that your stop bath is not too low in pH (1,5%) > pH 4,5 (to keep the stain) and that you're using a neutral or alkaline type fix (same reason).

haris · Aug 25, 2007

Thank you all for answers,

Roger, I know you already answered this question twice, but there is slight problem:

Your answer was: "Creating a stain, in proportion to the silver image"

Problem is, as English is not my native language, and as I know here is no English (or other languages)-Bosnian dictionary of photographic terms, atleast I haven't find any in my country so far, I simply don't know what "stain" in photography terminology means.

So, even if you or others zillion times repeat your kind answer, I still will not understad it because language barrier. That is why I asked for "for dummies" answers

Fotohuis, thank you for link.

Thak you all kindly,

Regards

Dave Miller · Aug 25, 2007

Haris, PM me your mailing address and I will post you some stained negatives so that you can see what we are talking about.

haris · Aug 25, 2007

Thaks Dave, PM sent.

haris · Aug 25, 2007

Fotohuis, thank you again for link. I just read it and that is what I hoped for. Explanation I think I would be able to understand, and even with photographic examples.

And thank you for notes about stop/fixer in yours previous post.

Thank you all again,

Enjoy life,

Haris

Fotohuis · Aug 25, 2007

Haris put your name and address on APUG and I will sent you on request some samples of Tanol and AM50 pyro developers to Serajevo.
If you want I can add some film samples too.

Staining is a colorizing of the negative as showed in the Moersch PDF file.

Post for zone 4, only USA and Australia is more expensive.
Bosnia... You don't have to be crazy to live here, but it helps...

It must be increadible difficult for you to arrange all photographic supplies to your country.

My English also often sucks,
My German is about the same level,
My French has been in the mean time crap,
My Czech language is enough to order some beer.....
My Dutch is on the other forum side so complicated that almost nobody can understand it anymore

Best regards,

Robert

Roger Hicks · Aug 25, 2007

Dear Haris,

'Stain' is a yellowish... well... stain (in the normal translation) in direct proportion to the silver image. In other words, if the silver image is 20% more dense, the stain (non-silver yellow image) will also be 20% more dense. Because the printing density is a question of how much light the negative blocks, you add together the stain (the yellow dye image) and the physical silver image.

This means you can under-develop in conventional terms, because you have a weak silver image and a weak stain/dye image, you have a printable density.

Sorry, I don't have a Croat dictionary and on consulting my Russian and Cesky dictionaries I can see the problems: the word is all over the place in the Slavic languages. Think of it as a dye, just as colour neg films use dyes, but with the silver still in place to supplement the density.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Roger

haris · Aug 25, 2007

Fotohuis, Roger,

Thak you for help. Yes, pdf on Moersch web site was excellent, it explained staining developing issue to me pretty much. So, Fotohuis, no need for trouble and expences of sending me examples. In the matter of the fact, Dave already kindly offered me simillar help, and when I read through pdf, I thank him for offer, because that pdf explained to me what I wanted to know.

Well, getting photo supplies here is relatively difficult. No company here import stuff except come Fuji Sueria and Kodag gold films and photolab/medical needed stuff. No b/w importers here in this country I am afraid. But, I personally import needed stuff for years now, it was my only option so I already get used to it. As I can see you people in west have better organized and faster post/courrier services, and because I don't have/use credit card I must allways go through the bank (that means no online direct buying ), but at the end of the day I am able to get what I need

Bothering thing was explaining to custom officers what I import and why, especially if ordered stuff is more expencive than 500 EUROS (including transport) then they asked next:

Custom: "What is this?

Me: - photography material

C: - why do you import it?

Me: - I am amateur photographer inloved with b/w traditional photography, that is why, and no seller in this counrty sells this material. And no manufacturer in this country manufacture it too.

C: - but this is professional equipment, you must have registered company to import this, for this thermometer you must have our government certificate it is allowed to be used in this country, etc...

Me: - well developing tank is developing tank, there is no professional or amateur developing tank. Amateurs used it for hobby, professionals use it for profession, but both use the same. I can't buy especially for amateur made developing tank. And that is the situation with other materials too.

C: (with confusing look in theire eyes) AHA, so this time OK, we will let you import this, but why don't you use digital camera like rest of normal people

Me: (inside of me) !$!@#$#)!#%@$!@$%@#$~!$))!#%!#@(@!%
(at loud) Well, I am different than rest of the people

Something like that But, luckilly I had only once this situation, I guess they remembered me: "Hey, that is again that strange guy who still use film"...

Thank you both Fotohuis and Roger again for all help.

Enjoy life,

Haris

Tom Hoskinson · Aug 25, 2007

The stain color depends on the developing reagent

Roger Hicks said:
Dear Haris,

'Stain' is a yellowish... well... stain (in the normal translation) in direct proportion to the silver image. In other words, if the silver image is 20% more dense, the stain (non-silver yellow image) will also be 20% more dense. Because the printing density is a question of how much light the negative blocks, you add together the stain (the yellow dye image) and the physical silver image.

This means you can under-develop in conventional terms, because you have a weak silver image and a weak stain/dye image, you have a printable density.

Sorry, I don't have a Croat dictionary and on consulting my Russian and Cesky dictionaries I can see the problems: the word is all over the place in the Slavic languages. Think of it as a dye, just as colour neg films use dyes, but with the silver still in place to supplement the density.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Roger

As as been previously posted on APUG, the color of the stain depends on the developing reagent or reagents employed.

Peter De Smidt · Aug 25, 2007

The stain has more effect on the higher negative densities. So at about .1 above film base plus fog, i.e. really low film density, there isn't much stain. Up around 1.3 above fb+f there will be much more stain, with stain making up about 40% of the total density. Hence, on the stain has more effect on higher negative densities, which equate to brighter sections of the print. With PMK the stain tends to be very green. Since green light means low contrast on VC papers, this means that a PMK negative tends to have less contrast in the highlights than in the mid or lower print tones. This can be a good thing or a bad thing.

Roger Hicks · Aug 25, 2007

Peter De Smidt said:
The stain has more effect on the higher negative densities. So at about .1 above film base plus fog, i.e. really low film density, there isn't much stain. Up around 1.3 above fb+f there will be much more stain, with stain making up about 40% of the total density. Hence, on the stain has more effect on higher negative densities, which equate to brighter sections of the print. With PMK the stain tends to be very green. Since green light means low contrast on VC papers, this means that a PMK negative tends to have less contrast in the highlights than in the mid or lower print tones. This can be a good thing or a bad thing.

Dear Peter,

Thanks for the clarification from greater experience/knowledge. I've only ever seen yellowish (including yellowish-brown, yellowish green) but I understand you are right.

Do I understand correctly that some staining devs do in fact provide fog-level stain at printing densities, or am I misreading the literature?

Cheers,

Roger

sanking · Aug 25, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
Dear Peter,

Thanks for the clarification from greater experience/knowledge. I've only ever seen yellowish (including yellowish-brown, yellowish green) but I understand you are right.

Do I understand correctly that some staining devs do in fact provide fog-level stain at printing densities, or am I misreading the literature?

Cheers,

Roger

Roger,

As was mentioned earlier, the actual color of the stain varies a great deal depending on developer, film and pH. It can be orange, yellow, brown, green, or even black.

Second, modern pyro formulas do not produce much B+F stain when used as indicated. When used for long develoment times to bump contrast some formulas produce much lower B+F than other.

Finally, the stain is proportional, which means that it is greatest in the upper mid-tones and highlights, where it has more impact on printing than silver density. Since grain is always greatest in these tonal values, grain masking is much greater with higher contrast negatives than with low contrast ones.

Pyro staining developers are not magic bullets, but they are as close to real silver bullets as you can come.

Sandy King

Roger Hicks · Aug 25, 2007

sanking said:
Roger,

As was mentioned earlier, the actual color of the stain varies a great deal depending on developer, film and pH. It can be orange, yellow, brown, green, or even black.

Second, modern pyro formulas do not produce much B+F stain when used as indicated. When used for long develoment times to bump contrast some formulas produce much lower B+F than other.

Finally, the stain is proportional, which means that it is greatest in the upper mid-tones and highlights, where it has more impact on printing than silver density. Since grain is always greatest in these tonal values, grain masking is much greater with higher contrast negatives than with low contrast ones.

Pyro staining developers are not magic bullets, but they are as close to real silver bullets as you can come.

Sandy King

Dear Sandy,

My understanding of 'proportional' has always been that it means 'proportional to the density of the silver image'. If it is more or less effective at one end of the curve than the other, then surely it is super-proportional or sub-proportional?

Nor am I entirely clear on the concept of 'black' stain. I have never seen an absolutely neutral stain (and very few neutral dyes). From friends at Kodak I understand that a black E6 dye is something of a Holy Grail.

You know far more about this than I, but I am eager to learn.

Cheers,

Roger

Tom Hoskinson · Aug 25, 2007

Amidol can produce a black stain, proportional to exposure.

Roger Hicks said:
Dear Sandy,

My understanding of 'proportional' has always been that it means 'proportional to the density of the silver image'. If it is more or less effective at one end of the curve than the other, then surely it is super-proportional or sub-proportional?

Nor am I entirely clear on the concept of 'black' stain. I have never seen an absolutely neutral stain (and very few neutral dyes). From friends at Kodak I understand that a black E6 dye is something of a Holy Grail.

You know far more about this than I, but I am eager to learn.

Cheers,

Roger

Roger, when used in a film developer recipe, Amidol can produce a black colored image stain that is proportional in density to the amount of exposure.

The amount, density and color of image stain can be difficult to evaluate visually. I use densitometry and make prints (mostly LF contact prints). The stain's ability to block light is the important feature, of course.

sanking · Aug 25, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
Dear Sandy,

My understanding of 'proportional' has always been that it means 'proportional to the density of the silver image'. If it is more or less effective at one end of the curve than the other, then surely it is super-proportional or sub-proportional?

Nor am I entirely clear on the concept of 'black' stain. I have never seen an absolutely neutral stain (and very few neutral dyes). From friends at Kodak I understand that a black E6 dye is something of a Holy Grail.

You know far more about this than I, but I am eager to learn.

Cheers,

Roger

Roger,

Stain is proportional to silver density. As silver density increases, stain density increases proportionally. Proportional increase means "at a constant ratio or relation", not in an equal amount.

As for color, I have not said that there is an absolute black stain, only that the color of stain varies a lot and some stains are visually black. That they are absolutely black is not a point I was trying to make.

Sandy

Roger Hicks · Aug 25, 2007

sanking said:
Roger,

Stain is proportional to silver density. As silver density increases, stain density increases proportionally. Proportional increase means "at a constant ratio or relation", not in an equal amount.

As for color, I have not said that there is an absolute black stain, only that the color of stain varies a lot and some stains are visually black. That they are absolutely black is not a point I was trying to make.

Sandy

Dear Sandy,

Sorry, too late at night, and I'd been out shooting all afternoon (Efke IR). I see what you mean. Yes, the effect is greater in the highlights, because the silver image is more dense -- but I had not thought that this was disputed.

As for the black stain, I was interested in what colour it was when 'diluted', as it were. Not that it matters much.

As I say, you have more experience of this than I, and I am eager to learn.

Cheers,

Roger

juan · Aug 26, 2007

Haris, if you are using Efke films, another reason to use a pyro or catechol developer is that it will harden the soft Efke emulsion and make the film less prone to scratching.

And here is an article on amidol as a negative developer.
juan

Tom Hoskinson · Aug 26, 2007

juan said:
Haris, if you are using Efke films, another reason to use a pyro or catechol developer is that it will harden the soft Efke emulsion and make the film less prone to scratching.

And here is an article on amidol as a negative developer.
juan

Interesting article and recipe Juan. As the article mentions, this is not a staining amidol developer. However, If you reduce the amount of sodium sulfite in the recipe, it will produce proportional image stain.

schroeg · Aug 26, 2007

I will only use staining developers (pyro) and after much much experimentation have settled on TMax with Pyrocat-HD. Once you print pyro negatives, it is hard to ever go back.

Gordon Hutchings 'The Book of Pyro' is filled with lots of background reading on just what happens with staining developers.

haris · Aug 26, 2007

Thank you juan.

Staining development

haris

haris

haris

haris

haris

haris

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency