Stain appearance on Pyrocat-HD?

Hi- searched for info but didn't find anything among the myriad threads about Pyrocat, so bear with me:

Just developed my first roll of 120 in Pyrocat-HD. It was Tri-x (400), exposed at iso 320; I developed for 12 min at 74 degrees (just a SWAG to start off...) using reduced agitation per Sandy King's article (1st min, 10 sec at the end of every 3 minutes thereafter.) Began with a pre-soak while I mixed the developer, and fixed with fresh TF-4 for 5 minutes. And developer and fixer were mixed using distilled water; tap water used for everything else wet, including final wash.

My negs actually look quite good for a first try...sharpness seems really nice and I'm sure I can get good prints once my darkroom is set up. Obviously, some fine-tuning is in order but I seem to have gotten it somewhat right.

Still, the negs have a uniformly purplish look, pretty much like tri-x souped in D76, HC110 or Xtol--I don't see any of the staining that Pyrocat is supposed to bring. How obvious should the stain be on wet negs?

Did I overfix and eliminate the stain? Is the film base color hiding it? Did I do something else wrong? Is everything OK, and I just don't know what I'm looking for?

Thanks for the sage advice...

MD

In my experience, Pyrocat-HD doesn't stain as much as it tans the emulsion. The stain it does leave is a purplish brown, and prints extremely well. Good luck and hurry up and get your DR up and runing so you can get printing.

Thanks for the info...if it's purplish-brown, maybe it's hidden by the base color?

Alas, won't have a darkroom until at least December, more likely January...have a slim chance to access a community darkroom in Sept/Oct.

Developing negs in the bathroom of a rented house at the moment...don't even have my scanner with me. Shoulda packed that into my luggage.

There shouldn't be any purple. How long did you fix it? You need to fix it long enough for the magenta to go away. The Pyrocat HD stain is brown and constitutes a greater % of the image than with other pyro developers such as PMK or ABC. So if your problem is not enough stain, something is wrong. Too much sulfite in the A solution will destroy stain. Maybe that's your problem.

Solution was Formulary purchased, and all the tri-x I've ever shot has retained a purplish tinge, unlike say Efke that's on a clear base. I fixed for 5 min in TF-4; I was actually worried I'd over-fixed as the directions say 3-4 minutes...

Presoak always comes out loaded with dye, of course--didn't think there was much else to remove. But tri-x should look completely colorless after processing??

No, it's perfectly normal that there is a little residual magenta dye in Kodak BW films after processing. This is addressed in Kodak film data sheets, and it's maybe the most frequently asked question here. It is supposed to be there, however, you can wash it all away by using extended fixer time, HCA and loooong wash, but you really don't need to.

Sounds like all the tri-x I've processed over the years, then. But should this coloring hide the pyro stain, or should it be obvious to look at? And if so, where could I have gone wrong with the development?

Now that the film is dry, I can see the unexposed areas don't seem completely transparent--a bit hazy, perhaps. Is this base stain? Is it normal or a symptom of something gone awry?

OK, morning's arrival was a big help--now that I have some real light, I can see the image appears to have a browner tinge in areas of density than I'm used to with non-staining developers, so I guess that's it!

AgentX said:

Solution was Formulary purchased, and all the tri-x I've ever shot has retained a purplish tinge, unlike say Efke that's on a clear base. I fixed for 5 min in TF-4; I was actually worried I'd over-fixed as the directions say 3-4 minutes...

Presoak always comes out loaded with dye, of course--didn't think there was much else to remove. But tri-x should look completely colorless after processing??

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You should see only the stain color. The edges and shadow areas should be clear except for base fog, which should be virtually invisible. N+ development will of course increase base fog.

The dye that comes out in the presoak is anti-halation dye and is not what you're seeing after fixing. That color comes from sensitization dye which only comes out through fixing. I don't use Tri-X so I have no good benchmarks for how long you should fix them, but I have fixed my 400TMax negatives for as long as 20 minutes before the damned magenta was all gone. Didn't hurt the negatives a bit. Tri-X fixes much faster than TMax, but I should think 10 minutes in the fixer wouldn't hurt a thing. Try that on a test negative.

c6h6o3 said:

I don't use Tri-X so I have no good benchmarks for how long you should fix them, but I have fixed my 400TMax negatives for as long as 20 minutes before the damned magenta was all gone.

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You DON'T need to clear all of the magenta dye, and it is NOT a sign of bad fixing if it's only slight as it usually is. There are proper fixing result tests (residual halide tests) available.

Slight magenta cast won't affect the printing in practice. You can also put the negatives in bright light for a few days, the dye fades away.

Please see KODAK recommendations for magenta dye and fixing; http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4043/f4043.pdf page 5 (TMAX).

hrst said:

Slight magenta cast won't affect the printing in practice.

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It affects mine. I don't get quite as dense a black with any magenta in the fixed negative. However, I only contact print onto Azo or Lodima, so I'm hardly a typical user. Whatever works.

All I'm saying is that fixing the living hell out of the negative won't hurt anything. You'd have to leave it in there for a lot longer than it takes to clear to get any bleaching.

AgentX said:

OK, morning's arrival was a big help--now that I have some real light, I can see the image appears to have a browner tinge in areas of density than I'm used to with non-staining developers, so I guess that's it!

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This sounds completely normal to me - I have been using Pyrocat HD as my standard developer for about a year now and have put hundreds of Kodak films through it in that time (yes I still shoot a lot of film). I have done tests of my own on the whole magenta dye thing and on both graded and ungraded paper there seems to be no real effect. Can't say anything about AZO as I have not used it since the early 80's but... who knows? The dye does eventually go away as I have seen in my older negatives that I KNOW used to have a tint. I wouldn't worry about it.

If you are shooting 120 you may want to try TMX as well - I seem to be the odd man out here but I think TMX and Pyrocat are an unbelievable combination. If you are new to TMX, beware that it's dev times are LONGER than TX and it is more responsive to time changes to control contrast.

One other word or warning with Pyrocat - YOU MUST PRINT to evaluate your development times/process - MUST MUST MUST. Just looking at the negatives is horribly misleading, esp if you are new to Pyrocat HD, or any other similar developer. Trust me I have been doing this for 30 years and my visual guess was way wrong because I was not used to evaluating Pyrocat developed negs. Do not waste a whole lot of time "calibrating" your development without printing - for that matter do not waste your time developing a bunch of film prior to printing your fist Pyrocat neg. This is absolutely the wrong way to go. Find a dark room, heck make a contact print in your bathroom something so that you know where your at.

RB

I'm about to make some argyrotypes...if the weather cooperates...and am considering trying some contact prints on gelatin-silver under a bulb, but it's not a really good time for that. I was hoping to develop a bunch of rolls while in this rental house, but I think you're right about the need to print to ensure everything's calibrated before I develop any more.

I can also report that every roll of Tri-x (400) I have ever developed has come out with the magenta cast. This is with the 120 variety, daylight tank development, and 3-5 minutes fix. This is true (if I am remembering correctly) for all developers which I have used including HC-110, Diafine, and Caffenol-C.

Fortunately, I discovered that after a couple hours sitting on my light box the magenta cast is almost completely gone. (I would have thought exposure to sunlight would be quicker, but maybe not). Now that I know this I don't feel any need to "fix like hell" to get rid of the color.

In any event, the Pyro stain is presumably more permanent, so this would be a quick way to "unmask" the pyro stain which you have.

Jeff

Well, my negs sure aren't dense enough for Argyrotype. Nothing resembling a deep shadow but the highlights are already printed way down. Which means they might be really nice on a grade 3 silver-gelatin...but then again, as has been pointed out, I don't know a thing about how these stained negs print.

In any case, Tri-X pink/purpleness (I'd call it a slight cast, more than anything) has never been an issue for me, either.

AgentX said:

Well, my negs sure aren't dense enough for Argyrotype. Nothing resembling a deep shadow but the highlights are already printed way down. Which means they might be really nice on a grade 3 silver-gelatin...but then again, as has been pointed out, I don't know a thing about how these stained negs print.

In any case, Tri-X pink/purpleness (I'd call it a slight cast, more than anything) has never been an issue for me, either.

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Trust me - your guess for both silver and alt process are probably way off with Pyrocat. Mine were - PRINT PRINT PRINT. Make an online friend that has the facilities if you have to, I am sure there is someone here that is near by and would be willing to help you out.

RB

Not really going to happen at this exact moment. I'm moving between countries and have a 2.5 week old.

In two weeks or so I'll be somewhere I might have access to a community darkroom. We'll have to see. I'll hold off on developing anything more (or I'll buy some Xtol...)

rwboyer said:

One other word or warning with Pyrocat - YOU MUST PRINT to evaluate your development times/process - MUST MUST MUST.

RB

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Indispensible advice. With pyrocat a greater % of the image is stain as compared to other staining developers because of the brown color. Even Pyrocat negatives which look to the naked eye too thin to print on enlarging paper yield stunning prints on Azo. If you're used to the green stain with ABC pyro, and develop to the same stain density with Pyrocat, the negative may be unprintably dense.

You just have to print them.