Stabilizer crystals and marks on negs

peter k. · Apr 25, 2015

Ok, don't do much color developing, so not real good at this, but its spring
And do realize that one is not suppose to rinse or photo flo after, but how does one keep away from the darn crystals and marks on the negs from the stabilizer ?

I agitate as it states, for a short time and then let it sit, but its all suds in the developing tank, when I open it.

Photo Engineer · Apr 25, 2015

Crystals form from tap water but not distilled water.

Therefore, if you have crystals you used very hard tap water.

There is nothing in a color stabilizer or final rinse that can crystallize. It was (is) designed that way!

PE

peter k. · Apr 25, 2015

Ah Ha... yes ... Guilty as charged ... very hard water... that and the low humidity, is causing droplets marks on film.

When developing B&W I do a final rinse in distilled photo flow... and it is usually 4x5, so I hang them from the corner and very little surface area to cause problems as the wet gets to the edge before it dries.

These were 35mm which I haven't shot in several years... oh my.. the difference in procedure... not only because its color, but its so small and its a roll that goes on forever, vertically.

Never liked the idea of squeegeeing film.

MartinP · Apr 27, 2015

To help with the humidity problem you could try an unventilated (unplug the fan) shower room. Get it well steamed up, turn off the shower, hang your film, close doors and windows, come back in six hours.

As the stabiliser is already mixed you could try filtering it immediately before use. A bit of cotton-wool stuffed down a funnel is something I always use with all chemicals mixed from powder, or which are being re-used. Stating the obvious, the 'better' alternative would be to mix the stabiliser with demineralised water next time, or sooner if you can find a bottle of stabiliser concentrate separately from a kit.

peter k. · Apr 27, 2015

Ha...Yes WILL definitely use distilled water with the stabilizer next time.
As part of the crystallization problem was the film drying so fast. I have my developing set up in the camper as we are limited in space, and when its not in use, can leave everything in place. Very handy.
Thought of doing what you stated, taking in the developing tank, with the stabilizer into a humidified bathroom and hanging there, and may well have to do that, but want to try another thought first.

Next time I develop color, I'll take out the gallon vaporizer, and try that.. directing the stream of mist not directly on the film, but close. All we need is a little more time for the suds to collapse and the liquid to drain.

Hmmm, don't like the idea of cotton-wool.. but when it gets wet, probably no lint.
It makes no difference in this case, as the suds are created in the developing tank, after it is agitated.

Photo Engineer · Apr 27, 2015

The bubbles or suds in Kodak or Fuji stabilizers or final rinses are not a problem. They will dry down and vanish.

PE

peter k. · Apr 27, 2015

Hmm.. using Arista C-41 developing kit.. don't know its base manufacture, but your basically saying that I'm making to much out of the suds... that it didn't cause the crystallization, the hard water did.

Yet, but.. ah.. never have I gotten crystallization in B&W!
Even when I've forgotten to use the distilled water photo flow mix as a last rinse.
Then I've only gotten some water drops issues.
So is it something with the stabilizer, combining with the hard water, that is giving the crystallization?

Rudeofus · Apr 27, 2015

AFAIK, the STAB provided by small kits can be quite high in pH, and this would cause a precipitate in hard water. Photoflo alone wouldn't do this, that's why you haven't seen it in B&W.

Photo Engineer · Apr 27, 2015

The Kodak and Fuji final rinse and stabilizers are made up of all liquid organic compounds just like Photo Flo. In fact, the major ingredients ARE Photo Flo 200! So, your kit may be the problem. IDK. But suds are normal!

PE

Rudeofus · Apr 28, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
The Kodak and Fuji final rinse and stabilizers are made up of all liquid organic compounds just like Photo Flo. In fact, the major ingredients ARE Photo Flo 200! So, your kit may be the problem. IDK. But suds are normal!

Kodak and Fuji put the Formalin into their E6 prebleach bath, C-41 doesn't need it anyway, so they have a lot of leeway with their final rinse. Most simple kit makers try to reduce the number of bathes to the extent possible, therefore have no prebleach, which means they have to put Formalin into the final rinse. C-41 is seen as collateral damage, it wouldn't need the Formalin anyway, but kit makers don't care and use the same final rinse product for both processes. This is a sensible (from a marketing stand point, technicalities aside) design decision and leads to the high pH of most final rinses provided with dev kits geared towards home users.

Photo Engineer · Apr 28, 2015

The Photo Flo ingredients should be neutral in pH. The Formalin also, unless it has oxidized to Formic Acid.

Added to water, these ingredients in their normal working strength have no buffer capacity and should be near neutral again, but as they dry down, any pH change they can contribute will increase. However, at their concentration, there should be little interaction with hard water as they are inert. Therefore, the salts in the hard water become the contributing agents.

PE

Rudeofus · Apr 28, 2015

Tetenal's MSDS for 5l C-41 kit states that their STAB contains Hexamethylenetetramine, which we know decomposes into Formaldehyde and Ammonia. Formaldehyde may be neutral all it wants, but Ammonia will raise pH. The MSDS lists pH of concentrate at 9.7.

If you look at Tetenal's STAB for professional labs, it contains Formalin and some Ethoxywhatever, and pH is at 5.5. So it depends on which product you have, and I dare a guess that peter k. has a small kit with alkaline STAB.

Photo Engineer · Apr 28, 2015

Hexamethylene tetramine is a potential culprit, but assuming that everything dissolved in the stabilizer, and there were no crystals left, the hexamethyle tetramine was either protonated and on its way to decomposition into formalin and ammonia, or had decomposed and the ammonia was evaporating off.

So, I have tried to dissolve this solid and it is very difficult to dissolve. If you don't it stays around. In water it decomposes and the pH goes DOWN as the ammonia evaporates and the formalin reacts with coupler and gelatin. So, to me it is a wash as to what went on. What did happen was that DW was not used, and perhaps this third market (to me - sorry Tetenal) stabilizer was just not up to the job!

PE

sagai · Apr 29, 2015

I am using Tetenal C41 and destilled water and I have never come across with this problem.

sagai · May 1, 2015

Actually I retract my previous mentioning.
Now I have the 5 Liter kit rather than the 1 Liter one and ... there are these blxxdy chrystals on the blxxdy emulsion!!!
I am having distilled water, so this is something that develops over the time in the stabilizer and filtering could get rid off, or I should forget completely this stabilizer?

One question, I know it difficult to decide based on a scanned image ... Are these crystal kind of things or may be something else?

Rudeofus · May 1, 2015

Are you sure that these are particles from STAB, or could this be dust which settled when you dried the film?

Here are some things you could try:

Would the particles come off when you blow air at them?
Do they come off if you brush them?
Can you wash them off with distilled water?
Can you remove them with water that contains a sequestering agent for water hardness?

Once we have answers to the above questions, we can speculate about the nature of these particles and think up a suitable remedy.

PS: Even if you mix your STAB with distilled water, you have tap water carryover from the preceding wash step as you reuse the bath. In my experience you have about 10-20ml carryover per run (assuming Jobo 1510 or 1520 tank, Patersons of same size will be similar), imagine what this means if you reuse a bath ten times.

sagai · May 1, 2015

Thanks for helping!
These are sticking in the emulsion.
I am thinking of that there are the answers in your ps. ... May be the water before stabilizer I do not know ...

So is it technically possible that the dusty water before stab remains dust on the negative and then the stab fixes those on the emulsion?

That is the thing here only on emulsion side:

Photo Engineer · May 1, 2015

That looks like junk from the air or water (solutions). It then dries on the film and leaves permanent marks.

Try filtering your solutions. Use a filter for your wash water.

PE

sagai · May 1, 2015

Thanks as usual PE!!

Rudeofus · May 1, 2015

I would still try that last experiment with water hardness sequestering agent. You don't have to get special chemicals, suitable products are sold as auxiliary cleaning agents for dish washers and laundry machines.

sagai · May 1, 2015

Sorry Rudeofus, what do you mean?
Calgonit kind of thing?

Rudeofus · May 2, 2015

sagai said:
Sorry Rudeofus, what do you mean?
Calgonit kind of thing?

Yes, there should be several products which do just that, but Calgonit is probably the most well known and advertised brand.

Stabilizer crystals and marks on negs

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