stabilize not fix

removed account4 · May 18, 2016

we all know fixer ( thiosulfate ( ammonium or sodium ) ) fixes film and paper.
it is also known that super saturated salt will stabilize ..

is there anything else that can be used to soak film or oaper in .. not for minutes but
maybe for a dozen+ hours ( like salt ) to stabilize images made?

im worried i won't have salt, or sea water near by when i run out of fixer.

thanks

Rudeofus · May 18, 2016

IIRC stabilizers were never meant to replace fixers entirely, i.e. stabilized photographic materials don't last as long as properly fixed ones. The underlying principle of stabilizers is that you converted silver halide to some really really inert silver salt, which happens to be less sensitive to light.

The rock salt combo you suggested would not really qualify as stabilizer - concentrated rock salt solution is a weak fixer, which removes some of the silver halides but leaves back some others (especially AgI).

The problem which you are bound to encounter with stabilizers is the highly insoluble silver salt they form: this is much harder to fix than the silver halide you started with.

If the main thing you want to protect yourself against is a case "John runs out of rapid fixer when all shops are closed", then I'd recommend you prepare a stash of Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfate. Both compounds are really cheap, and as long as you keep them in a dry place, they will last pretty much forever. They can be mixed into a working fixer quickly and any time you need them. Some vendors also sell cheap powder fixer which gives you basically the same thing in one convenient package.

AgX · May 18, 2016

Rudeofus said:
IIRC stabilizers were never meant to replace fixers entirely,...

Stabilizers today are used to replace the final washing stage.

pdeeh · May 18, 2016

Soak your film in a mild solution of 2016 Yale mfas

Photo Engineer · May 18, 2016

I would not want to handle those prints or negatives. Most stabilizers leave behind a residue that I don't want to deal with.

PE

NedL · May 18, 2016

Baldus' instructions for fixing a calotype include three options:

a 3% solution of potassium bromide for 1/2 hour
a 7% solution of hypo, with 1% gallic acid added
he mentions a saturated solution of sodium chloride, but does not provide details

He does mention a long wash step before and after the fixing step ( and says that if the calotype has not been washed enough prior to the KBr bath, the bath will turn green, which is an indication that it should be repeated. )

For salt prints, there was a time when many people used "old hypo", sometimes with salt added, or fresh hypo "aged" by adding some silver nitrate. Around the same time some people used a combined tone/fix step with sel d' or, made by adding some gold chloride to the hypo. These methods ( sel d' or and "old hypo" ) gained a reputation for not completely fixing the print. But one interesting thing that has been noticed is that some of these have kept well over the years and they tend to be from printers who advocated a long wash ( 30 hours or even days ).

I've never tried anything except plain hypo ( with a pinch of sodium carbonate ) myself.

I have processed a lumen print in 0.6% sodium thiocyantate for 20 seconds. That was maybe 6 months ago and it shows no sign of changing, but it's sitting in my closet so not getting a very good test. I was interested in how the colors changed and wasn't thinking of it as a fixer.

Gerald C Koch · May 18, 2016

At one time you could buy stabilization paper and processors. The processor used a solution of sodium or potassium thiocyanate. The processor produced an almost dry print but the thiocyanate was left in the paper. This certainly would not be suitable for film. This caveat also applies to sodium chloride. It is intended for papers inn particular salted paper. Again not suitable for film.

Grant Haist in his book the Monobath Manual uses a variety of different chemicals to fix the film. One of these is the amino acid cysteine perhaps available in health food stores.. There are others like arginine but they are most likely harder to find than sodium thiosulfate.

removed account4 · May 18, 2016

thanks for the replies.
just stocking up for the zombie apocalypse ..

i assisted a guy who used an xray processor ( xtamatic )
and we'd xpose and stick all our rc paper in the machine
in dry out dry, just like xray film. not sure what was in there
but i know dentists offices have xrays that are years and years old...

RobC · May 18, 2016

MSDS for Tetenal STABINAL says it contains
Polyethylene glycol octylphenyl ether
potassium thiocyanate

maybe some research on how to make those or just stock up on STABINAL which costs £7.32 for 20m2 of black and white paper protection.

doesn't say it can be used for film but maybe it can.

Looks like it coats image with polythene.

The bottled and partially used stuff lasts indefinitely and so it should given its purpose.

Photo Engineer · May 18, 2016

I repeat, I would not handle any stabilized film or paper without a wash.

PE

Micheal Myers · Jul 20, 2016

Which wash you use to remove residues from negatives or films?

Rudeofus · Jul 20, 2016

Micheal Myers said:
Which wash you use to remove residues from negatives or films?

I think PhotoEngineer referred to a thorough water wash. Thiocyanate, or whatever is in these stabilizing solutions, is not good for your skin, so a water wash is always preferable to stabilizers.

darkroommike · Jul 20, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
I repeat, I would not handle any stabilized film or paper without a wash.

PE

Nor would I want to store them near properly fixed and washed films and negatives from fear of cross contamination.

Arctic amateur · Jul 20, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
I would not want to handle those prints or negatives. Most stabilizers leave behind a residue that I don't want to deal with.

PE

Including C41/E6 films, or is that a different kind of stabilizer?

Photo Engineer · Jul 20, 2016

B&W stabilizers stabilize residual silver halide, or if used after the entire process, stabilize the silver image.

Color stabilizers act on dyes and gelatin to preserve them.

The B&W stabilizers of all types are less benign than the color versions and are used in far higher concentration.

PE

DAK · Jul 21, 2016

Is Sistan a stabilizer of the sort we are being warned against?

DAK

Photo Engineer · Jul 21, 2016

Sistan is a Thiocyanate based stabilzer to prevent bronzing of Silver images as they age. I do not know if they suggest a rinse after use, but it would not hurt IMHO.

PE

pdeeh · Jul 21, 2016

while SIstan is a proprietary formula, are there any publically available formulae for a Sistan-type stab?

Jim Jones · Jul 21, 2016

Gerald C Koch said:
At one time you could buy stabilization paper and processors. The processor used a solution of sodium or potassium thiocyanate. The processor produced an almost dry print but the thiocyanate was left in the paper. . . .

Some of my prints from the early 1970s processed with this system are still good, some are not. The instructions recommended fixing in standard fix and washing for long life. Had it been convenient to do this, it would have also been practical to use traditional paper and chemicals.

removed account4 · Jul 21, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Sistan is a Thiocyanate based stabilzer to prevent bronzing of Silver images as they age. I do not know if they suggest a rinse after use, but it would not hurt IMHO.

PE

you are not supposed to wash sistan or ag-stab off, it is the final rinse for film and paper
from what the instructions and i believe ctien says.

Photo Engineer · Jul 21, 2016

Kodak and others made a number of stabilzed paper materials and processes. Their Ektaline 1000 paper and process and the Consolidated Electrodynamics (CEC) paper and process were two examples. Bimat film was a camera material used in space. Patents were held by Haist and Humphlett at EK, but other companies did much the same.

PE

RalphLambrecht · Jul 22, 2016

jnanian said:
we all know fixer ( thiosulfate ( ammonium or sodium ) ) fixes film and paper.
it is also known that super saturated salt will stabilize ..

is there anything else that can be used to soak film or oaper in .. not for minutes but
maybe for a dozen+ hours ( like salt ) to stabilize images made?

im worried i won't have salt, or sea water near by when i run out of fixer.

thanks

just wait;in 100 years we'll be all close to seawater

Gerald C Koch · Jul 23, 2016

Baths like Systan are not intended as a replacement for proper fixing and washing and should never be used as such. Their use is to prevent the discoloration of mounted prints.

While it is true that a dilute salt solution was used to stabilize simple silver chloride emulsions its use with other types containing bromide and iodide has not been established. Even with silver chloride emulsions the results are less than satisfactory. Fox Talbot's early work can only be displayed for brief periods in very weak illumination for fear of fading. This and a similar thread have really run off the rails with people assuming a cheap and readily available substitute for hypo. This is just not true and anyone doing so runs the risk of damaging their film or prints.

removed account4 · Jul 23, 2016

gerald

the experiments i have read about where salt is used to stabilize film is not a weak solution at all
it is something like 1 gallon of water and a whole cylinder of salt ( like 740 grams )
the water is not saturated to the same amount as sea water ( roughly 35g/ L ).
from reading information about talbot's photogrenic drawing and his recipe he used
a super saturated solution ( as much salt dissolved into 300 ml of water ) and then
diluted by 50%.

the weak salt water solutions i have heard about in historic contexts have been used after fixing the film or prints
and before a final wash ( used by the us navy to conserve water and a pre-curser to what some use now as fixer remover )

andy ( zsaz ) here on apug conducted some experiments, and i think he showed it took 3 or 4 days to fix / stabilize his film.
no idea if he eventually fixed them ( traditional fix ) or if his film today, a handful of years later, is ruined. others on flickr have
presented similar results.

john

Gerald C Koch · Jul 23, 2016

Hi John,

Depends on how one defines weak.

Anyway from a practical perspective taking 3 to 4 days to process film is going to damage it. As I said this thread is really a dead end. Sodium thiosulfate is the cheapest means of fixing an emulsion. There are many other compounds and Haist mentions some of them in the Monobath Manual. However they are all harder to obtain and much more expensive.

stabilize not fix

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