Squeegees... why?

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 19, 2013

clayne said:
Drying film is so easy but people keep trying all of these different snake oil methods. Here's all you need:

1. Distiller water.
2. Wetting agent.

Immerse the film on the reel (assuming stainless) for 30 seconds. Hang and leave it alone.

I've had nothing but issues doing what you suggest. It isn't until I remove all of the excess liquid that I get squeaky clean negatives.
The point is that what works for you might not work for everybody else. My own situation is such that I can not do anything about cat hair and dust in the air; the house we live in is too small to claim an individual room as darkroom, so I'm confined to using a section of an unfinished basement in a 100 year old house, which I share with three cats, storage shelves, laundry machine and drier, furnace, water heater, and a big dehumidifier. When I do as you suggest, I end up with dust all over the film.

The point of my long explanation of what I do has to do with debunking the common thought that 'absolutely nothing' can touch the emulsion when finishing up. I am living proof that it works very well, if done with great care.

cliveh · Aug 19, 2013

Thomas Bertilsson said:
I've had nothing but issues doing what you suggest. It isn't until I remove all of the excess liquid that I get squeaky clean negatives.
The point is that what works for you might not work for everybody else. My own situation is such that I can not do anything about cat hair and dust in the air; the house we live in is too small to claim an individual room as darkroom, so I'm confined to using a section of an unfinished basement in a 100 year old house, which I share with three cats, storage shelves, laundry machine and drier, furnace, water heater, and a big dehumidifier. When I do as you suggest, I end up with dust all over the film.

The point of my long explanation of what I do has to do with debunking the common thought that 'absolutely nothing' can touch the emulsion when finishing up. I am living proof that it works very well, if done with great care.

Thomas, try my method, 30 seconds or so in de-ionised water after wash. Hang in ambient temperature and do not wipe or touch film in any way and leave to dry. Let me know if it works. I have been doing this for many years, with no dust, drying marks or cat hairs.

clayne · Aug 19, 2013

Roger Cole said:
As you say, "assuming stainless." If you use plastic reels, which I do, it's best to never immerse them in wetting agent. It builds up, makes the reels sticky, and is very difficult to remove. I remove the film from the reels for the wetting agent bath.

I use plastic partly because I use a Jobo, but also because I hate stainless. I tried and tried and never managed to load the things reliably. The Jobo reels I find very easy. YMMV.

3. If using plastic, switch to stainless.

Honestly, the emphasis is on, cover it with distilled water/wetting agent (with whatever method), hang it and DO NOT MESS WITH IT.

clayne · Aug 19, 2013

Thomas Bertilsson said:
I've had nothing but issues doing what you suggest. It isn't until I remove all of the excess liquid that I get squeaky clean negatives.
The point is that what works for you might not work for everybody else. My own situation is such that I can not do anything about cat hair and dust in the air; the house we live in is too small to claim an individual room as darkroom, so I'm confined to using a section of an unfinished basement in a 100 year old house, which I share with three cats, storage shelves, laundry machine and drier, furnace, water heater, and a big dehumidifier. When I do as you suggest, I end up with dust all over the film.

The point of my long explanation of what I do has to do with debunking the common thought that 'absolutely nothing' can touch the emulsion when finishing up. I am living proof that it works very well, if done with great care.

I am also living proof that doing nothing at all results in perfectly fine negatives.

Disclaimer: I use a drying cabinet and do not mess with it after I hang it. However, before that, I used the bathroom and had no issues either.

How do you expect removing excess moisture is going to protect you against cat hair or dust in the air though? The film is saturated with moisture and will be tacky until it isn't tacky. The surface water, which is gravity drawn, isn't going to massively change the equation when it comes to the core removal of moisture from the film. Even if you used a completely lint-free cloth, wiped off all excess moisture (ignoring the possibility of scratches), any dust that shows up is still going to adhere.

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 19, 2013

cliveh said:
Thomas, try my method, 30 seconds or so in de-ionised water after wash. Hang in ambient temperature and do not wipe or touch film in any way and leave to dry. Let me know if it works. I have been doing this for many years, with no dust, drying marks or cat hairs.

I have tried it, Clive. No use I'm afraid. Even when there were no cats, but rabbits instead. I have tried five or six different methods, to no avail.

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 19, 2013

clayne said:
I am also living proof that doing nothing at all results in perfectly fine negatives.

Disclaimer: I use a drying cabinet and do not mess with it after I hang it. However, before that, I used the bathroom and had no issues either.

How do you expect removing excess moisture is going to protect you against cat hair or dust in the air though? The film is saturated with moisture and will be tacky until it isn't tacky. The surface water, which is gravity drawn, isn't going to massively change the equation when it comes to the core removal of moisture from the film. Even if you used a completely lint-free cloth, wiped off all excess moisture (ignoring the possibility of scratches), any dust that shows up is still going to adhere.

All theory aside, your method does not work for me.

This thing of drying film is one of finding what works for us as individuals. Your method works for you. My method works for me.

I'm not here to fix a problem I do not have. I'm very pleased with my method. It's bullet proof.

I am here to impart a method that MIGHT work for somebody else that's having problems, AND to let people know that it is not the end of the world to touch a wet emulsion.

Roger Cole · Aug 19, 2013

I have one of those portable closet things made of PVC and plastic that my wife had when she moved in, from Ikea, that I use to hang film in. Cheap and at least keeps the bulk of air circulation and thus dust down. No problems with dust on drying film.

But I get water marks if I don't wipe off the excess. I've tried it.

OzJohn · Aug 19, 2013

Roger Cole said:
Great minds think alike.

I too have done the Photoflo on fingers thing for as long as I can remember with no adverse results - if the wash water, fingers and the Photoflo solution are clean how can there be scratches? OzJohn

Sirius Glass · Aug 19, 2013

Ghostman said:
I have never ever seen anyone recommend using a squeegee, in fact quite the opposite. My question is, why were they ever manufactured or when was their use ever advocated?

Beats the $#!+ out of me, I use PhotoFlo and never needed one.

Vaughn · Aug 19, 2013

OzJohn said:
I too have done the Photoflo on fingers thing for as long as I can remember with no adverse results - if the wash water, fingers and the Photoflo solution are clean how can there be scratches? OzJohn

And to throw another method out there -- the method we teach/use at the university for the past 35 years I have personally experienced -- and probably the twenty years before that:

Mix a gallon of photo-flo in a SS bucket (don't worry if it is a little too dilute). Remove film from reel. See-saw film thru the photo-flo for a minute. Wipe excess off between clean fingers. Hang in the film drier.

Replace photo-flo every few days when it starts to get cloudy.

We have up to 125 photo students per semester using the same bucket of photo-flo.

Ken Nadvornick · Aug 19, 2013

Vaughn said:
Mix a gallon of photo-flo in a SS bucket (don't worry if it is a little too dilute). Remove film from reel. See-saw film thru the photo-flo for a minute. Wipe excess off between clean fingers. Hang in the film drier.

Sounds like darkroom rats at The Daily Tabloid in 1947...

Ken

clayne · Aug 19, 2013

Roger Cole said:
But I get water marks if I don't wipe off the excess. I've tried it.

Distilled water?

Thomas I agree with what you're saying. What I'm trying to say is that its usually the simpler one makes it the more successful the results. I don't have cats so I don't have to account for random animal detrius causing a problem.

Bill Burk · Aug 19, 2013

Went to find the correct spelling of Schrödinger's cat and found the wiki page had been vandalized... fixed that.

Now what were we talking about...

If you hang film in a drying cabinet in a room shared with a cat... Do your negatives have hair on them before you hang them up?

I used to get scratches when I squeegeed. So I stopped. I got so paranoid, I blamed the pressure plate of my camera (absurd! that can only scratch the base!) I blamed the felt strip on the re-used film cassette (I threw them all out!), and I threw out my sponge and soft rubber squeegees... And I stopped using the two-fingers method as well.

Honestly the step I believe led to cleanest negs was using filtered water and Photo Flo for the final rinse (instead of tapwater and Photo Flo which would give me residue).

Thomas, I understand with soft sponge, great care and soft windshield-wiper squeegee you get clean negs every time. I believe you, and I believe it is due to your great care. And the less time negs spend hanging wet, the less time something floating in the air has to stick and bond with the emulsion. Any dust and hair that lands after the film is dry can be easily blown off.

I could scientifically begin to introduce squeegee to my methods and see if it would change anything. Probably should add hardener to my fix first.

KennyMark · Aug 19, 2013

It became obvious to me less than halfway through this thread (yes, it takes me a while some days) that everyone finds their own way. Mine is to soak in a wetting agent, anything that reduces the surface tension of water without leaving its own residue works fine, and the cleaner the water, the better, then snapping the film like a whip two or three times, finally hanging it to dry in the most dust free room I can find. What I don't understand is why sometimes my film dries flat, and sometimes it cups. Anyone...?

Roger Cole · Aug 19, 2013

Curl depends a great deal on ambient humidity so will vary with the weather.

And yes I mix my photo Flo with distilled water, at half strength and still get steaks if I don't gently wipe it. I get streaks even if I do wipe it if I mix full strength by the directions.

Bill Burk · Aug 19, 2013

Roger Cole said:
Curl depends a great deal on ambient humidity so will vary with the weather.

And yes I mix my photo Flo with distilled water, at half strength and still get steaks if I don't gently wipe it. I get streaks even if I do wipe it if I mix full strength by the directions.

And what I do carefully, is watch the rivulets of Photo Flo in the white porcelain tray, until I see that Photo Flo has diffused sufficiently into the water, before letting the film in.

Truzi · Aug 19, 2013

I tried a squeegee once with a couple test rolls, and had fine scratches. Good thing I tried on test film.
Mixing surfactant according to directions left a residue on my film.

For 120, I found I can take it off the reel and run it under the faucet (blasting water) and then hang it and it seems to keep spots from forming. I can't do this with 35mm because it is too long to handle in this manner.

Recently, I rather unscientifically used far less surfactant than the instructions say, and had decent results. I may try with distilled water also.
I am reluctant to try the squeegee again.

Jon Shiu · Aug 19, 2013

The method I use is squeegee with an absorbent green photo wipe strip. Wrap the strip around the top of the hanging film and hold on each side of the film, then pull it taut and squeegee down extremely slowly. The film dries quickly and I get no drying marks or scratches. Also, about 5 years ago I stopped using photo-flo as I find it unnecessary. I tried the other methods, but they didn't reliably work for me.

Jon

Bill Burk · Aug 19, 2013

I use a "few drops" in about 16 ounces of (reverse osmosis) filtered water.

Vaughn · Aug 19, 2013

Everyone's tap water is different, too...

Mainecoonmaniac · Aug 19, 2013

I squeegee the back of my washed fiber prints to dry them. Works great.

clayne · Aug 20, 2013

Roger Cole said:
Curl depends a great deal on ambient humidity so will vary with the weather.

And yes I mix my photo Flo with distilled water, at half strength and still get steaks if I don't gently wipe it. I get streaks even if I do wipe it if I mix full strength by the directions.

That's pretty strange if you get streaks with distilled water. I myself use half strength photo flo. Are you drying it in a heated environment or is it possibly drying too quickly?

What I've found is that having copious amounts of surface water+pflo helps pull water off in more uniform fashion due to the reduced surface tension allowing the water to stream off. I don't trust small beads or snapping the film to have as positive effect because its effectively reducing that "stream factor."

adelorenzo · Aug 20, 2013

To answer the original question, when I processed my first roll of black and white last year I followed the Ilford publication Processing Your First Black and White Film. From Step 15:

To remove any excess water carefully run
squeegee tongs or a clean piece of chamois cloth
down the length of the film. (Take care as any grit
caught up here will scratch the whole film.)

Now obviously this thread shows that people have formed their own opinions on the matter but certainly if you are new to B&W you're probably going to listen to the guys at Ilford who might know a thing or two about a thing or two.

I used to keep the squeegee floating in my temperature water bath until it was time to use it and it never seemed to be a problem before hanging film in my bathtub to dry. Once I set up a small darkroom I stopped bothering with the squeegee step.

George Collier · Aug 21, 2013

I use PFlo 1:200, and wipe with a Graphic arts product called Webril Pads. They are very clean and soft, come on a roll about 8" wide, and are perfed to tear. A roll will last a lifetime, nearly. I use the same one for each roll in one session, 35mm or 120.

I first soak the pad in the Flo solution, fold in half severl times, then wring it out by rolling over it with a ss tank till just damp, then hang the film, put the clothespin "weights" on the bottom, hold the roll out at an angle, and wipe each side once from top to bottom with the folded up pad, slowly and carefully. For the next roll, I re-fold to a new surface. Never any lint, streaks, or dust. (I also built a drying cabinet in the darkroom for this.)

richard ide · Aug 22, 2013

I bought a gallon of 1:600 Photoflo about 20 years ago and mix it 1/2 strength. I soak the film for about 30 seconds and then dip the film in clean water for a second whether on reel or film hangers. Then hang to dry. Never a mark. I figure the concentrate will last me a few centuries. ;<)

Squeegees... why?

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