Spring cleaning treasure

[tbransco]

I've known I had an old plate camera, and some plates, buried at the bottom of a drawer for decades; but, yesterday, I finally hauled it out to take a closer look. The first thing I looked at was the lens and found it marked as "Laack Söhne Rathenow F=135m/m" with an IBSO shutter having markings from 1 sec. to 1/100 sec. and C/B/T. No idea what the "C" setting does, but "B" and "T" are clear enough. From that, I stumbled on to find the camera itself is a Riezschel Heli Tip. An old online ad from 2003 suggests the camera is/was capable of shooting both 6.5x9 and 9x12 plates; but, the plates I mentioned having are "Kodak Canada Royal Plates / 3¼ x 4¼". It's also not clear to me whatsoever how one would even load a plate in this camera!

I guess what I'm interested in is learning a bit more on how these types of cameras worked. Can anyone point me to any resources - other than this forum - where I might learn more?

Cheers,
Terry

 

[Ian Grant]

I have a similar Laack 135mm f4.5 len, a Pololyt, in an Ibso, the shutter is pneumatic slow speed control like the Compound. The B & T are obvious, the C must be the regulated shutter speeds. My lens is a Cooke triplet,it's had the aperture blades repaired it's being returned on Saturday,

Your camera if 9x12 only takes 6x8 in a Rada or Rollex 120 or 629 roll film holder. The ground glass focus back is removed to fit plate holders. Usually a small catch at the top, then slide upwards.

Ian

 

[JPD]

Doesn't the lens have a name other than the manufacturer?

These Rietzschel cameras have a lens board you can easily remove. But you probably have no need to remove it.

It's a 9x12, and can only take 6,5x9 if you use plate adapters for that size in the 9x12 holders. But the adapters only work for glass plates, if you don't use something that makes up for the thickness of the glass. Roll film holders for 9x12 exist, so you can use 120, like Ian said.

Ibso shutters are pneumatic and they often need a CLA these days for the longer speeds to work.

I have a Rietzschel camera that I took the fine eight element Rietzschel Linear lens from. Here it is on the little lens board.

 

[Romanko]

The first thing I looked at was the lens and found it marked as "Laack Söhne Rathenow F=135m/m" with an IBSO shutter

Your camera is most likely 9x12 cm format. Foma still produces sheet film in this format (you will need an insert for the original glass plate holder to shoot sheet film). Zebra Dry Plates is a small company in Slovenia that coats glass plates. You can contact the owner he might be able to make 9x12 cm plates for you. A cheaper alternative is to shoot paper negatives that you can invert digitally or contact print by traditional methods. The exposure will be very long so if the shutter works in B or T you are good to go.

You can try finding some 100 years' old handbooks on archive.org or online. There are a few videos on Youtube where people use old plate cameras with sheet film or glass plates.

The plates that you have are a different format, very old and probably fogged.

Is your camera complete? Do you have a focusing screen and plate holders?

 

[tbransco]

I have a similar Laack 135mm f4.5 len, a Pololyt, in an Ibso, the shutter is pneumatic slow speed control like the Compound. The B & T are obvious, the C must be the regulated shutter speeds. My lens is a Cooke triplet,it's had the aperture blades repaired it's being returned on Saturday,

Your camera if 9x12 only takes 6x8 in a Rada or Rollex 120 or 629 roll film holder. The ground glass focus back is removed to fit plate holders. Usually a small catch at the top, then slide upwards.

Ian

Cheers, Ian. Forgive my ignorance, but I'm confused by the statement that "Your camera if 9x12 only takes 6x8 in a Rada or Rollex ... film holder" Could you elaborate a bit more, please? It's somewhat of a moot issue at this point perhaps, as I have neither a film back nor a plate holder for this camera. Hopefully, I can find one or the other without too much trouble.

Terry

 

[tbransco]

Doesn't the lens have a name other than the manufacturer?

Yes, sorry; I left out the fact it is also marked with this: "Extra Rapid Aplanat 1:7.2". So, from that I guess I can conclude it's an F/7.2 lens, right? Below the lens is a slider along the following scale: 7.2 - 9 - 12.5 - 18 - 25 - 36 - 50.

These Rietzschel cameras have a lens board you can easily remove. But you probably have no need to remove it.


View attachment 368816

Actually, the Laack lens screws into the front plate on mine.

It's a 9x12, and can only take 6,5x9 if you use plate adapters for that size in the 9x12 holders. But the adapters only work for glass plates, if you don't use something that makes up for the thickness of the glass. Roll film holders for 9x12 exist, so you can use 120, like Ian said.

Very good to know.

Ibso shutters are pneumatic and they often need a CLA these days for the longer speeds to work.

No question a CLA should be my first step if I were thinking of restoring this beast. The next thing would be to find a new(er) ground glass. Would there be any manufacturers of such things these days? The one in the camera seems especially dim.

Thanks for the information on your Riezschel. I hope to see some images from it once you get it back from its CLA!

Terry

 

[Ian Grant]

Cheers, Ian. Forgive my ignorance, but I'm confused by the statement that "Your camera if 9x12 only takes 6x8 in a Rada or Rollex ... film holder" Could you elaborate a bit more, please? It's somewhat of a moot issue at this point perhaps, as I have neither a film back nor a plate holder for this camera. Hopefully, I can find one or the other without too much trouble.

Terry

Typo 6x9.

The camera itself would be 9x12cm, it takes that size plate holders. It will not take smaller plate holders like 6.5x9. However Rada (part of Plaubel). and Rollex (later owned by Linhof), made slot in roll film backs, mostly 120, but some 620. They could be 6x9 or 6x6 with an insert.

Ian

 

[tbransco]

Your camera is most likely 9x12 cm format. Foma still produces sheet film in this format (you will need an insert for the original glass plate holder to shoot sheet film). Zebra Dry Plates is a small company in Slovenia that coats glass plates. You can contact the owner he might be able to make 9x12 cm plates for you. A cheaper alternative is to shoot paper negatives that you can invert digitally or contact print by traditional methods. The exposure will be very long so if the shutter works in B or T you are good to go.

You can try finding some 100 years' old handbooks on archive.org or online. There are a few videos on Youtube where people use old plate cameras with sheet film or glass plates.

The plates that you have are a different format, very old and probably fogged.

Is your camera complete? Do you have a focusing screen and plate holders?

Thanks for the info on Zebra and Foma, Romanko. Sadly, no plate holders came with the camera, just some developed plates and three boxes of those unopened Kodal quarter-plates. Maybe the last user had an adapter of some kind, but it's not with the camera. The focusing screen is quite dim and has seen far better days.

Terry

 

[JPD]

Yes, sorry; I left out the fact it is also marked with this: "Extra Rapid Aplanat 1:7.2". So, from that I guess I can conclude it's an F/7.2 lens, right? Below the lens is a slider along the following scale: 7.2 - 9 - 12.5 - 18 - 25 - 36 - 50.

Yes. It's a slow lens, but the Aplanat was seen as fast when the design was introduced in 1866. They were still made by different manufacturers as budget lenses into the 1920s.

Finding a roll film holder that fits the camera might not be easy and could take a while. The Rada and Rollex holders came in different sizes and with different flanges, and they aren't marked. http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Rada_Rollfilm_Back

 

[tbransco]

Yes. It's a slow lens, but the Aplanat was seen as fast when the design was introduced in 1866. They were still made by different manufacturers as budget lenses into the 1920s.

Finding a roll film holder that fits the camera might not be easy and could take a while. The Rada and Rollex holders came in different sizes and with different flanges, and they aren't marked. http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Rada_Rollfilm_Back

Ah, that's an important head up. Thanks, JPD.

 

[Romanko]

Sadly, no plate holders came with the camera, just some developed plates

They are not hard to find. Just be aware that not all 9x12 plate holders are interchangeable. Actually, most are not. Here is a thread on plate holders:

9x12 Plate holders 1

Because there are so many variations of the holders I've measured & photographed what I currently own. It would be useful if anyone can add further variations and also the cameras they fit. These two fit a Rodenstock 9x12 and an Orion Werks 9x12 details Width 100mm, length 139mm note the...

www.photrio.com

You might have more success with roll film adapters as @Ian Grant and @JPD suggested.

You inspired me to finish the box of Foma 9x12 sheet film that is sitting in my freezer. I have three 9x12 plate cameras in mostly working condition.

 

[tbransco]

They are not hard to find. Just be aware that not all 9x12 plate holders are interchangeable. Actually, most are not. Here is a thread on plate holders:

9x12 Plate holders 1

Because there are so many variations of the holders I've measured & photographed what I currently own. It would be useful if anyone can add further variations and also the cameras they fit. These two fit a Rodenstock 9x12 and an Orion Werks 9x12 details Width 100mm, length 139mm note the...

www.photrio.com

You might have more success with roll film adapters as @Ian Grant and @JPD suggested.

You inspired me to finish the box of Foma 9x12 sheet film that is sitting in my freezer. I have three 9x12 plate cameras in mostly working condition.

Looking forward to seeing some of your new 9x12 shots, Romanko. Somewhere in that thread was a link to a Rada catalogue, and in there I found out that Riezschel (Rietzschel?) cameras required a 'Rieztschelfalz' holder. That in itself will save me some time (and $$$) if I ever want to pull the trigger on some holders and film sleeves.

I believe the same catalog mentioned that Rada had made adapters to fit quarter-plates into 9x12 holders, which might explain why my stack of Kodak quarter-plates were stored with this German camera. Something to keep an eye out for perhaps.

Thanks for the tip/link!

Terry

 

[JPD]

Rietzschel 9x12 plate holders on eBay. Not cheap, and niether is the shipping, but you can at least see what they look like. https://www.ebay.com/itm/355423969937

 

[tbransco]

Rietzschel 9x12 plate holders on eBay. Not cheap, and niether is the shipping, but you can at least see what they look like. https://www.ebay.com/itm/355423969937

Thanks for the heads up, JPD. I've been scouring ebay.de without success, so it's encouraging to hear there is at least one option out there. That price is a show-stopper though.

Cheers,
Terry

 

[Jonathan-sv]

If you are willing to compromise (cheat??) you could probably make an adapter that takes 4 x5 inch standard film holders. I did it for a Bergheil and an ICA (they share some of the parts) using 3-d printed parts. I actually bought the ICA with plate holders and a Rollex back hoping they would fit the Bergheil (they didn't).

I suspect your ground glass doesn't need much more than a cleaning. An f 7.2 lens isn't going to give a very bright display.

Jonathan

 

[tbransco]

Thanks, Jonathon.
For the moment, I'm sticking with the idea of shooting 9x12 sheet film, if I shoot with it at all. Perhaps someone out there can 3D print plate holders and film sheaths for several types of these antique plate cameras?

 

[Romanko]

If you are willing to compromise (cheat??) you could probably make an adapter that takes 4 x5 inch standard film holders.

A 9x12 to 4x5 adapter on thingiverse:

International 4x5 film adapter for 9x12cm folding cameras by giannidalmas

I love my 9x12 folding cameras (Voigtländer Avus and ICA Maximar): lightweight, compact, perfect conversation starters.The joy of using them was ruined by the metal cassettes (hard to find with their film sheaths) and the ground glass being dim and not perfectly positioned on the film plane...

www.thingiverse.com

I don't have a 3D printer and for me buying original plate holders is cheaper than ordering the 3D-printed parts and 4x5 film holders. But it might work for you.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Perhaps someone out there can 3D print plate holders and film sheaths for several types of these antique plate cameras?

Many 9x12 cameras have a very thin edge on the plate holder that slides into a pair of slots on the camera body. This doesn't lend well to 3D printing, in that the very thin edge will be prone to breakage or warping. Also, it would be hard to make space for the dark slide and still get the film to the same plane as existing ground glass -- again, being originally made of folded sheet metal, the plate holders are quite thin.

Not saying it couldn't be done -- perhaps by screwing a steel sheet onto the plastic part(s) -- but it wouldn't be an easy design job and would have to be done again for each model it's to fit, since hardly any plate holders interchange between different camera brands.

 

[tbransco]

Many 9x12 cameras have a very thin edge on the plate holder that slides into a pair of slots on the camera body. This doesn't lend well to 3D printing, in that the very thin edge will be prone to breakage or warping. Also, it would be hard to make space for the dark slide and still get the film to the same plane as existing ground glass -- again, being originally made of folded sheet metal, the plate holders are quite thin.

Not saying it couldn't be done -- perhaps by screwing a steel sheet onto the plastic part(s) -- but it wouldn't be an easy design job and would have to be done again for each model it's to fit, since hardly any plate holders interchange between different camera brands.

Thanks for explaining that so well, Donald. I assumed as much myself, but had to throw out my 'hail Mary' regardless

 

[Donald Qualls]

Given I already have a 3D printer and a little experience with the CAD software, I might try it if I had a plate camera with ground glass but no plate holders. The two cameras I have, however, are Ica and Zeiss Ideals; they use the same plate holders, and I have a dozen plate holders with film sheaths.

 

[tbransco]

It's too bad we still live in an age that lacks 3D metal printers, or affordable CNC machines. Best of luck with your experiments!

 

[Donald Qualls]

3D printing in metal is more or less affordable now -- special filament that goes in a standard 3D printer (sapphire nozzle recommended due to high wear), and then send to a service to vacuum bake out the plastic and sinter the part to a solid. Surface finish is about like sand casting, but strength is quite acceptable. Per-part cost is fairly high, but the price of admission is quite reasonably (spool of filament is around $75, or about 3x the basic PLA).