Spotting Color Prints?

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Ben 4

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With inspiration and advice from the folks on this forum, I've recently started printing color (RA-4) in my darkroom. I've been at it for several weeks now (about as long as the crabapples have been falling here in Pennsylvania), and am starting to get results that I'm happy with. Using RA RT Developer Replenisher in tubes with a roller base, the process is much simpler than I imagined. It did take several lengthy printing sessions (and a lot of staring at prints) to sort out the filtration, but now that I have that, things are looking very good.

Except for the dust spots. Printing these negs for myself has revealed that our local pro lab is returning less than pristine negatives. Some of the gunk can be blown or brushed off. Some can't. Some of it I can't even see (until it shows up on the prints). So what do you folks use for spotting color prints? I see Fotospeed has a set of liquid dyes. Has anyone ever tried the dry watercolors from Peerless? Any tips?
 

Photo Engineer

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Kodak used to make a set of spotting colors for color paper. IDK if they still do, but the dyes were matched to the paper dyes for hue and general stability. They came as small sheets on a wax paper support, and as small tubs or jars. I have a set of tubs that have lasted me for most of my life.

PE
 

Mike Wilde

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marshall retouch colors group 1

I have a set of 8 1/2 oz droppers that I acquired as part of a rig I bought last year that was previously acquired as an estate lot in the mid 70's. The box looks like it dates to the late 50's or early 60's and there is barely any amount of anything used. They are still marketed - it looks like it will set you back about $50 today. I also have a very old set of a dry dye set of 10 colors called Kodak Flexichrome colors if I ever get brave enough to retouch large format transparencies. No date, but again, looks like from the 50's. Hope this gives you some leads for 'baying. etc.
 

kevs

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a longer-term solution...

Hi Ben,

Slightly OT - if your processed negs have dust or dirt incorporated into the emulsion gelatin, you could clean them by carefully soaking them in lukewarm water for a few minutes. Underwater, rub the emulsion (dull side) *gently* with your finger, keeping the nails off for obvious reasons. Then, rinse in clean water with a tiny drop of wetting agent and dry in a dust-free environment for a few hours, depending on room temperature. You might want to practice on a duff neg strip to begin with.

It's fiddly and a pain, but it'll save you from time-consuming retouch work. I've done this a few times and had good results.

You can buy retouching pens for mono prints; maybe you can get them for colour work too -i dunno. If you use liquid dyes, go very carefully because these will spread along the plastic base of your paper. You'll need loads of patience too. Practice on a duff print until you're confident.

Final tip - if you're sure it really is their fault, complain to your processing lab, because if it's affecting you, it'll be affecting others. If you can't get satisfaction, I'd sack 'em and go elsewhere.

Good luck with the colour printing.
 

Photo Engineer

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Umm, Kevin is right to a point. When finished you must soak in the stabilzer intended for your particular film and not water with wetting agent. If you do not, you may lose your negatives over time.

PE
 

tim elder

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Two products you could try, if you haven't already, are the PEC Cleaner and Edwal No-Scratch. Edwal No-Scratch can really remove a lot of dust and small scratches from negatives - it's only disadvantages are that it only works with standard, non-glass negative carriers and that you have to clean it off afterword - which PEC Cleaner is great for. The PEC Cleaner also works very well but not as dramatically.

Tim
 
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Ben 4

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Thanks for the suggestions. I do have some film cleaner (not Pec) and may give that a try. And I do plan to discuss this with the lab. It never would have occurred to me to treat the negatives with stabilizer if I decided to rewash them. Why is that?

I'm still open to suggestions for color spotting products.

--Ben
 

papo

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Prevention is better than cure, says one English proverb. I think that you should even push the lab out of the game and develop your color negatives yourself. If you have managed the RA4 process, it should be no problem to learn how to handle the C41 one (you can find a lot of information here in another thread). You'll be amazed how clean the negatives can be. Well, some spotting may even then be necessary due so some dust in the enlarger, but that's another story.
 

jd callow

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If you can find the small dye bottles they are the best and will last many many lifetimes -- you could dump them out and never use up the residue. For years (3 or 4 at least) I used a few drops worth of each colour dried to the back of an RC print. When I got my own bottles there was still more than half of the original drops still available for use.

The nice thing about using and reusing a palette like I had is that many of the colours you need will be 'pre-mixed' on the palette. As an aside I'd rather clean the neg 20 times than spot once.

Spotting is another reason I almost always take more than one frame of what I think will be a winning exposure of a subject. If one frame/sheet has a blemish or a stuburn bit of crap on it the other may be clean.
 

2F/2F

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Freestyle has a nice set of dyes called Marshall's Retouch Colors. $40 for eight colors that will last longer than you or I will.
 
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Ben 4

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Processing my own c-41 has crossed my mind! I may give it a try. I know that I can get cleaner negs than the lab is giving me.

Everything I read suggests that hand processing (which is what I'd be doing) with the temperature requirements of color film is a bit iffy, however, and that the developer doesn't keep well. So I'm a bit hesitant to go down that road.
 

2F/2F

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"hand processing...with the temperature requirements of color film is a bit iffy"

I would say that this is bunk.

I have I don't know how many rolls and sheets I have processed by hand that are fine...at least several hundred, done right here in my bathroom, or at school, and usually with freebie chemicals I was given that expired a decade ago. Temperature control is not nearly as critical as it is made out to be.

If you read the Kodak data sheet, they suggest a method for finding average temperature during the process, to find a good starting temp when using hand agitation. I start my development at 101.5 after using this method, because it falls about three degrees (usually) by the end of development, in my average processing conditions.

Some kits, such as Arista, even have time/temperature charts for color neg. chemistry. In the Henry Horenstein book "Color Photography: A Working Manual", there is a time/temperature chart listed as well, although when I contacted Horenstein questioning him about this, he could not recall whether or not it could be used with today's process.

Personally, I would say a more accurate statement would be that the price of processing color film is what is "iffy"...especially in larger formats and doing non-standard processing. The amount of money you save by processing your own is ridiculous.
 

papo

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I quite agree with 2F/2F. Another possibility how to keep the temperature during development is to hold the tank in a water jacket of suitable temperature, i.e. a sufficiently large bucket with tempered water. The processing time is about 3-4 minutes and during that period the temperature in the bucket will drop only insignificantly. Or, if you decide that this is the right path, you can buy an older JOBO or another processor with temperature-controlled water basin and you'll have no problems at all.
As for chemistry, I usually use Tetenal C41 one liter kit, make two batches half a liter each and process 8 films (135 or 120) in each, i.e. 16 films altogether. With five liter kit it would be even more cost effective. It usually takes me one or two months to process those 8 films and I never had any problems with the developer.
 

2F/2F

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Yes, I use a tempering bath as well, at school with their water panel and a stainless sink, and at home with a print tray and a Kodak siphoning washer and manual control of the hot an cold valves. (It is much more of a pain controlling two knobs at home rather than one at school!) It still drops about 3 F however, losing temperature out the top of the Nikkor tank that is not submerged, I suppose. Perhaps it is time to make the switch to plastic tanks instead of my old Nikkors.

I use the Kodak chems and mix a gallon at a time. The developer (cheap) is good for 60 rolls of 135 or 120, or six weeks. It will usually expire before I get to 60, but I don't bother to mix the chemicals unless I can process at least 32. Thus, I tend to hold my film for a while. It goes faster when doing sheet film, as I use 250mL at a time one shot to do ten sheets.

The bleach is good for twice the capacity of the developer, with no time limit. The bleach is half the cost of a whole kit, so this makes it even more economical.

It really saves you the big bucks with sheet film, but you still get a worthwhile savings on roll film...worthwhile if you have the time and are a penny pincher.

I would agree that if you don't shoot much, and only process with normal development when you do, there is no point. The main reason I process my own roll film is that I push my roll film at least one stop probably 75% of the time, and often two. Also, I shoot a lot in these situations, so my lab fees would be out of hand.

This is part of the reason I am moving heavily toward digital for my low-light pix. It's a lot of time and expense for not all that many (and hard to print) keepers with film. I hate to waste the silver, chemistry, and time on pix that somebody is just going to want in a digital file format anyhow. With digital you get to shoot more and have to pay nothing and far less time processing. In low light with small format, I am seeing less and less point in shooting film unless I intend for the final result to be on a wall or in a portfolio or book.

Also, since the punchy Ultra Endura on which I relied for low light printing is now DISCONTINUED, most of the pictures I was getting on film in low light are very hard to print. They were hard even on Ultra, but now it is often impossible to get them the way I want them.

Also, I *honestly* love the high-ISO low-light images from my 10D and 1D. I shoot it just like I shoot film (except about twice as many shots), and process it well, and it looks great for grungy grainy pix. 20D and later don't look the same. Same with 1D Mk. II. Too glazed over.

Dare I say that I actually like these shots better than film in many cases? This is coming from someone who is devoted to using film in all its incarnations, and who has shot tons and tons and tons of film in low light. It's important to judge results, not technical details. I like both. I can't discount digital just because it's digital.

What I am getting at is that you need to examine your own shooting habits in detail before deciding whether or not to process your own.
 
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kevs

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Umm, Kevin is right to a point. When finished you must soak in the stabilzer intended for your particular film and not water with wetting agent. If you do not, you may lose your negatives over time.

PE

Sorry if my post was misleading, i hadn't realised that colour films would require re-stabilising after re-washing them.

I stand corrected!
 

papo

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The need for re-stabilising after re-washing is an interesting piece of news for me. I have always thought that stabilisation is a one-shot process with permanent effect. Actually, when I develop color films, I always wash them a few minutes in water after stabiliser and then put them into water with wetting agent (Tetenal Mirasol 1:400) before drying, because it seemed to me that they dry more evenly and without any stains than right after the stabiliser. I haven't observed any problems so far, but the fact is that my color negs processed in this way are not older than about three years.
PE, could you please tell me if I'm doing wrong?
 

AgX

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A stabilizing bath containing formaldehyde is used to gain two effects:
-) to counter growth of microorganisms (though I’m not sure how long it holds on due to evaporation and thus is not combined with a less volatile agent)
-) to control uncoupled magenta-forming couplers which otherwise would deteriorate the magenta dye. This is done by reaction with those couplers. I assume this to lead to a stable product; otherwise it would not make much sense.

When rewashing a dirty piece of film one would use a wetting-agent bath thereafter anyway. Such typically contains an agent to counter microorganisms.


Kodak C-41 films of recent design don’t need formaldehyde anyway due to the use of altered couplers or another kind of coupler reactant.
 
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PHOTOTONE

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Since RA-4 paper is a gelatin emulsion photopaper, just like all darkroom processing photo papers regardless of b/w or color, any of the retouching dyes designed for photo papers will work. You just need to blend and mix the colors to match the tone of the area where the dust spot is. I have a set of Marshalls colors in small dropper bottles that work just like the old spotone dyes used for b/w. You squirt a tiny bit of several colors out onto a plate (white) and I tend to let them dry a bit, and then mix the shade I want, texting on a junk print first. If you do your own printing, you will have "junk" prints to use for testing. The dye soaks into the emulsion, so no further treatment should be necessary.

Another method used by some is to spray the print with a "retouching" lacquer, which has a tooth, and then retouch with colored pencils. Of course, after this, you have to put another overcoat of lacquer over to "fix" the retouching. I don't prefer this method, but is required for retouching where you have to lighten up dark spots on the print.

After 30 years of doing this, I have found that, for dust spotting microscopic white spots, you don't have to match "exactly" the color of the surrounding area, rather it is usually satisfactory to just get the "tone" of the white spot down to match the density of the surrounding area. When I switched to a diffusion-type light source on the enlarger (most dichroic color heads), my need for spotting went down dramatically.
 

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Stabilzers use a wetting agent and a dye/film stabilzer. The latter is either formalin which serves to protect dyes and to prevent growth of mold and bacteria, or another agent that is just a bacteriocide. The action to prevent bacterial growths is rather long term, as the film contains a fair amount.

Re washing color films or washing after stabilzation or use of a wetting agent after the stabilzer bath is counter productive and increases the chance of image instability or attack by microoranisms.

So, the rule is - STABILIZER LAST and NO OTHER TREATMENT FOLLOWING THAT STEP.

This is true of all color films currently manufactured even though there are several different stabilzers out there. You must use the right stabilzer for your film!

PE
 

AgX

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But PE,

Commercial (photo-)wetting agents all contain bacterio-/fungizide to my understanding.
So, in which way a sole use of such a bath after a film has been stabilized long before could be counterproductive?

And concerning the new Kodak C-41 Final Rinse it does NOT contain a stabilizing agent (source: Kodak Q&A).
 

Photo Engineer

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Wetting agents such as Photo Flo 200 etc. are merely surfactant mixtures. See the on-line references in the MSDS Kodak publishes. None that I have ever read contain a bacteriostat as-is. Only products labeled "Stabilzer" or "Final Rinse" contain bacteriostats.

The new Kodak Final rinse contains a proprietary bacteriostat/fungicide! The chemical name is on the label of the product and is in the MSDS.

Common detergents that some people use are just wetting agents and contain no bacteriostat. But, for B&W film it is not needed as much as for color film. You see, finely divided silver is a bacteriostat all on its own, and all silver is removed from color materials. Color materials contain a lot of things 'bugs' like to feast on too!

PE
 

AgX

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Concerning wetting agents I took the European perspective...

Tetenal Mirasol 2000 and Maco LP-Masterproof contain agents against microorganisms attack to the emulsion (and I hope the late Agfa Agepon too...).

Ilford Ilfotol contains a preservative. I don't know whether that is merely for its own preservation.
Concerning the Calbe F 905 P I'm doubtful too.
 
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Photo Engineer

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For straight B&W they need not, and I guess that is why they don't in the US. Tween, TX200 and others alone have no preservative, and sold as surfactant for B&W films do not either.

PE
 

AgX

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Thanks for that hint concerning the different susceptibility to microorganism attacks between silver- and dye containing gelatin. I must admit I overlooked that.
 
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