Spots on C-41

Lanthanum · Jan 22, 2017

Hello All

I have just processed 2 rolls of C-41 and they have spots on them. This has not occurred before in the C-41 processing I have done. I tried to clean them with both an emulsion cleaner and water, no effect.

Procedure: ATL-1500, 2523 tank, 2 rolls, 300ml of dev in tank 1, 300ml blix in tank 2. 1 minute water wash between dev and blix. Chemicals used once before. I have 500ml stored in 500ml laboratory storage bottles, I take 300ml from that and at the end placed the used chemicals back into the bottles (so previously I mixed the 300ml of used once chems with 200ml of unused chems). Unicolor liquid kit. Processing dev for 3 minutes and 30 seconds (as partially used chems). Water temp maintained at 38 degrees throughout the processing by the ATL and a Hass Intellifaucet. Film is Kodak Portra 400 (fresh).

Any ideas what could cause this? Just bad chems? Stabilizer?

Also, the colours seem washed out a bit, exposure or processing?

Thanks for any help

Anon Ymous · Jan 22, 2017

If it had been something stuck on the film now, then it would look brighter, not darker. Some of them look smudged, so perhaps something had stuck there before processing and the smudge is caused by the rotation?

railwayman3 · Jan 22, 2017

Probably not the answer in this case, but I have occasionally had similar marks when processing ancient "found" film. I've assumed it was poor storage, damp conditions or even mould.

crumpet8 · Jan 22, 2017

What does the neg look like? Don't think I can be of much help, but am curious to know the answer too. I assume this is 35mm?

Lanthanum · Jan 22, 2017

Thanks everyone. Looking at the neg using a 4x loupe the dots are pale areas in the picture. It does not look like something on the negative. I tried to clean the negative using PEC-12 and then with water, no change. The film is new Kodak Portra 400 (35mm).

Rudeofus · Jan 22, 2017

Something must have stuck on your film which retarded color development locally, you can even see drag marks on some of these spots. This could be something like a powerful restrainer, or it could be leftover fixer from previous process runs. If there a chance that the film tank or the spirals were not 100% clean?

Are these spot patterns distributed evenly across all frames, or are the more predominant at one end of your film roll?

foc · Jan 22, 2017

Could the mixing of used and unused chemicals have something to do with it? Particles/dirt in the used chemicals?

Lanthanum · Jan 23, 2017

Rudeofus said:
Something must have stuck on your film which retarded color development locally, you can even see drag marks on some of these spots. This could be something like a powerful restrainer, or it could be leftover fixer from previous process runs. If there a chance that the film tank or the spirals were not 100% clean?

Are these spot patterns distributed evenly across all frames, or are the more predominant at one end of your film roll?

Hello Rudeofus, there are a few frames of the 36 that appear completely clear of trouble, more towards the end of the roll. I run the standard ATL-1500 cleaning program (with tank and reels mounted) after every process run. It could be that there is something remaining over, though the gentle action of the rotation and the lack of contact of the film with anything does not quite gel with the pattern?

Can stabiliser do this? I did place the negatives in a salad spinner after processing was complete (never done that before, forgot to mention it in my original post), maybe the rotation in that could cause the stabiliser to affect the film? I had not thought that likely, but am now wondering as that was really the only change from past processes.

Lanthanum · Jan 23, 2017

foc said:
Could the mixing of used and unused chemicals have something to do with it? Particles/dirt in the used chemicals?

Hi foc, would like to know the answer to your question as well. Up to now I have seen no adverse effect...

Rudeofus · Jan 23, 2017

Lanthanum said:
Can stabiliser do this? I did place the negatives in a salad spinner after processing was complete (never done that before, forgot to mention it in my original post), maybe the rotation in that could cause the stabiliser to affect the film? I had not thought that likely, but am now wondering as that was really the only change from past processes.

Typically STAB, if applied at the end of your process, is unable to significantly change film appearance. Leftover stab could, however, affect consecutive process cycles.

Do you use your ATL-1500 for other processes than C-41, too?

Lanthanum · Jan 23, 2017

Rudeofus said:
Typically STAB, if applied at the end of your process, is unable to significantly change film appearance. Leftover stab could, however, affect consecutive process cycles.

Do you use your ATL-1500 for other processes than C-41, too?

I make sure that stab never touches any processing equipment (for example, reels). I always carefully remove the film from the processing reels before placing it by hand in the stab. So I am confident there is no stab being introduced by me (the ATL is second hand, I don't know how it was treated, other than it saw little use).

Yes, I do B&W in the ATL, Ilfotec HC and Ilford Hypam fixer, one shot. I run the ATL cleaning program between and allow everything to dry completely. Could there be contamination even after the cleaning cycle?

Rudeofus · Jan 23, 2017

I don't have an ATL, maybe others with more experience could chime in. Allow me to provide you with an anecdote from my processing with Jobo standard inversion tanks:

I normally wash film with a method which loosely resembles Ilford's method, which is tedious and time consuming. Then someone gave me on of these "forced turbulence film washers", and film washing was much easier. After 10 minutes of this new washing with 38°C water I unplugged that hose device, and I let the film tank stand for a couple of minutes, filled to the brim with warm wash water. When I poured out the water, it was deep red. Not pale pink, it was red.

Conclusion: if you think, that film development is magic, then you haven't taken a closer look at washing yet.

Recommendation: take your ATL apart as far as possible, clean it thoroughly with as much water as you are willing to expend, then do a test run with film that you can afford losing.

Lanthanum · Jan 23, 2017

Rudeofus said:
I don't have an ATL, maybe others with more experience could chime in. Allow me to provide you with an anecdote from my processing with Jobo standard inversion tanks:

I normally wash film with a method which loosely resembles Ilford's method, which is tedious and time consuming. Then someone gave me on of these "forced turbulence film washers", and film washing was much easier. After 10 minutes of this new washing with 38°C water I unplugged that hose device, and I let the film tank stand for a couple of minutes, filled to the brim with warm wash water. When I poured out the water, it was deep red. Not pale pink, it was red.

Conclusion: if you think, that film development is magic, then you haven't taken a closer look at washing yet.

Recommendation: take your ATL apart as far as possible, clean it thoroughly with as much water as you are willing to expend, then do a test run with film that you can afford losing.

Wow, really interesting, thanks Rudeofus! To washing I shall go...

MattKing · Jan 23, 2017

Lanthanum said:
Can stabiliser do this? I did place the negatives in a salad spinner after processing was complete (never done that before, forgot to mention it in my original post), maybe the rotation in that could cause the stabiliser to affect the film? I had not thought that likely, but am now wondering as that was really the only change from past processes.

Are you saying that the film was loose when you put it through the salad spinner?
If so, I would guess that the spots you see are due to physical damage to the film.
Salad spinners can impart a fair amount of centripetal force to a piece of loose, floppy and somewhat fragile (wrt the emulsion) film.

crumpet8 · Jan 23, 2017

MattKing said:
Are you saying that the film was loose when you put it through the salad spinner?
If so, I would guess that the spots you see are due to physical damage to the film.
Salad spinners can impart a fair amount of centripetal force to a piece of loose, floppy and somewhat fragile (wrt the emulsion) film.

OP mentioned that the neg appears undamaged and the spots are just in his picture/emulsion.

Rudeofus · Jan 24, 2017

crumpet8 said:
OP mentioned that the neg appears undamaged and the spots are just in his picture/emulsion.

Also, damage to film emulsion rarely shows visible drag marks ....

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