Spots appearing in sky with Rodinal

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mgilbuena

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I have a roll with Rodinal, tri-x 400 @ 13 minutes, 1:50. This is my second roll where I've got some of these spots appearing in predominantly sky scenes. I agitate by inverting the tank and swirling once every minute, with the initial agitation for 30 seconds.

What are these spots? What might be wrong with my technique? Air bubbles? Something else? I do not believe the film is touching, as I do not get these results with any other developer.

I am at a loss for how I might be able to eliminate this.

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Ian Grant

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It looks like some kind of contamination, it's not the developer itself. It might be fixer contamination if the tanks not been taken apart for cleaning, or it might be at the fixing stage. The white spot in the 3rd image to the left of the stop sign leads me to suspect contamination.

Ian
 

ic-racer

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Scans of the negatives and sometimes photographs of the of the emulstion and base side can help. So, far I can't say.
 
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mgilbuena

mgilbuena

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Do you guys think it might be permawash residue or staining? I have been thinking about what parts of the process may introduce these spots.

I shot a test roll that I have not processed yet. I am going to cut it four ways in an attempt to isolate where the fail point may be. These are the scenarios I am going to test:

1> Develop normally, use water stop as normal, fix as normal, permawash as normal -- SPOTS SHOULD APPEAR, AS THIS IS MY STANDARD TECHNIQUE.
2> Develop normally, use water stop as normal, fix as normal, skip permawash -- do 20 minute water rinse instead.
3> Develop normally, use stop bath wash, fix as normal, skip permawash -- do 20 minute rinse instead
4> Develop normally, use stop bath wash, fix as normal, use permawash as normal

Any other ideas? I anticipate spots to appear on test 1, as this is my standard method.
 

guitstik

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You might try a pre wash. That is what is my usual routine when developing. It gets the film up to the temp that the chemicals are at and it also avoids the potential for spots as the the film is pre moistened.
 

john_s

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When you look at each side of the film under a loupe, where the marks are, do you see silver density or do you see a surface effect (on the emulsion side)?

If the marks are excess silver density, I would suspect something in the development process.

If the marks don't exhibit silver density but are surface irregularities, I would suspect a washing or drying problem. Different printing/scanning equipment show these defects to differing degrees.
 

erikg

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I don't think it has anything to do with permawash. Looks like uneven development right at the very beginning. You could try a 1 minute presoak, or just make sure the developer gets in the tank quickly and evenly, should only take 15 seconds for a two reel tank, then agitate vigorously for 30-45 seconds, no pauses, no messing about. That's a critical moment. Then you can agitate as you normally do. I would keep the rest of your process the same for now.
 

Nicholas Lindan

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If I were to take a guess, from looking at the prints/scans and knowing nothing else, I would say the wet or damp emulsion came into contact with something when the film was drying. Are there signs of 'glazing' on the negatives? When drying were the negatives wiped down or squeegeed to keep from getting water spots? How long did you wash after the Permawash? Was distilled water used for the photo-flow? (You did use photo-flo?)

It is possible the film was touching in the tank. It may just be coincidence it happened when you were using Rodinal and Rodinal may have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Although the shape of these defects is wrong for the cause - one can get markings like this by pouring the developer in too slowly or using developer that hasn't been well mixed. Try filling the tank with developer and then dropping the reels into the developer. Agitate vigourously for the first 30 seconds - pretend the tank is a cocktail shaker. Try a 5/30 agitation schedule with lots of quick inversions.
 
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georgegrosu

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Developer solution and the fixer are homogeneous solutions.
Defects that appear as irregular show some neutral areas (sky). Neutral areas are places where you can see all the imperfections.
From what I understand, it is not water spots on the film.
In my opinion, seems a matter of diffusion of the developer, to film and in the film in solution.
Causes: agitation low (especially at the beginning of develop) film has been turned from cold to hot quickly repeatedly.
Proof you can do with tri-x 400 while another piece of film (another variety). Shoot a wall of light, uniform.
If the process make with a machine, drops of condensation can occur, which give irregular development.
Wetting the film before the development is a good way.
George
 

piu58

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It may be possible that you used a much to concentrated wedding agent. This gives similar spots. I've nver seen real white areas in the spot with too much wdding agent. If it is the cause there was a a real high concentration. 1ml per liter is sufficeint, less not harmful.
 

mr.datsun

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I'd go with Uwe on this. Looks like the marks I had on two films. After a lot of research I put my marks down to undiluted wetting agent* getting on the film before it was soaked in the diluted agent. The weird thing (or not) about wetting agent marks (which i think is on the emulsion side) is that you almost can't see it with the naked eye. You have to get it to catch the light at the right angle. Nearly impossible to remove. I washed a marked strip 3 times and maybe reduced the marks a little. After that I made sure I mixed the agent into the final bath well, before inserting the film.

I haven't seen marks that intense, though.

*I have never got these marks using washing up liquid.
 
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mgilbuena

mgilbuena

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Eh, Rodinal..

I'm pulling my hair out as to what may be causing this. You guys do not think it may be exhausted or contaminated fixer?

It occurred to me that I was mixing the rodinal and water directly into the tank while the film was inside. Even though I vigorously agitated, I thought this might have been what I was seeing. To be sure, I cut a test roll into thirds and placed each piece into a separate tank:

Tank 1: 2 minute water pre-soak. I put water and added the rodinal last while film was in the tank as I have previously done. 1:50, developed for 13 minutes, dumped, water rinse for 1 minute, dump, then fixed for 5. Washed film by inverting 5 times, dump, 10 times, dump, and 20 times, dump. Added permawash, 30 seconds, pulled out, hung to dry. SPOTS APPEARED AS EXPECTED.

Tank 2: 2 minute water pre-soak. Rodinal and water mixed in separate container. Added to tank. 1:50, developed for 13 minutes, dumped, water rinse for 1 minute, dump, then fixed for 5. Washed film by inverting 5 times, dump, 10 times, dump, and 20 times, dump. Added permawash, 30 seconds, pulled out, hung to dry. SPOTS APPEARED.. NOT EXPECTED.

Tank 3: 2 minute water pre-soak. Rodinal and water mixed in separate container. Added to tank. 1:50, developed for 13 minutes, dumped, water rinse for 1 minute, dump, then fixed for 5. Washed film by inverting 5 times, dump, 10 times, dump, and 20 times, dump. NO PERMAWASH. SPOTS APPEARED.. NOT EXPECTED.

Could it be fixer contamination on the reels / tank from an improper wash? And how does one correctly wash a steel tank and steel reels?

This problem does not exist with D76. For the above, I am using Compard R09 One Shot Film Developer.
 
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mgilbuena

mgilbuena

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When you look at each side of the film under a loupe, where the marks are, do you see silver density or do you see a surface effect (on the emulsion side)?

If the marks are excess silver density, I would suspect something in the development process.

If the marks don't exhibit silver density but are surface irregularities, I would suspect a washing or drying problem. Different printing/scanning equipment show these defects to differing degrees.

It is not on the surface. It's silver density.
 

georgegrosu

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I think your problem is here „It occurred to me that I was mixing the rodinal and water directly into the tank while the film was inside.”
If you put developer in water is focused there's every chance that he might join in some areas, at first, then to harmonize the concentration. When you pour concentrate developer he is very active and focused will overdevelop area.
It is recommended the film to contact the developer work solution - homogeneous.
I developed the negative in tank, put the developer in in bowl, I measure temperature and then the film go. I Work without cap to control agitation finest.
George
 

pgomena

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Perma Wash is not a wetting agent, it is a wash aid like Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent. It shortens the wash cycle by making left-over fixer more soluble in water. You must wash your film after using it, then use a wetting agent in distilled water for a final rinse to avoid water spots. It sounds to me as though you are getting dried Perma Wash on your negatives.

Your process confuses me a little in general.

Try this:

1. Presoak film 2-3 minutes in plain water at same temperature as the rest of your process.
2. Dump out presoak water.
3. Add working strength developer (pre-diluted).
4. Dump developer at end of developing time.
5. Rinse film (or use stop bath, your choice)
6. Fix
7. Rinse 1 minute
8. Perma wash or Hypo Clear
9. Wash film 5 minutes.
10. Rinse using wetting agent (Photo-Flo or similar) diluted in distilled water per directions.
11. Hang film to dry.

Good luck!

Peter Gomena
 

Ian Grant

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You need to start eliminating possible causes.

It's definitely happening at the development stage and it's chemical in nature. it's not happening later.

First you must mix and dilute the concentrated developed before adding to the tank. Putting concentrate into a tank full of water WILL cause problems.

More importantly you must use different water, distilled or deionised, it's quite likely the problems to do with your water supply. While commercial developers contain chelating agents and surfactants to help with most water supplies sometimes it's not enough. This could be why there's no problem with D76 only Rodinal.

It's unlikely there's a problem with the Rodinal itself, despite the various name changes it's still made in the same old Agfa factory with no changes.

Tanks of any type steel or plastic need to be washed well after use preferably with warm water. The usual mistake is to think because films have been washed in them they are entirely clean, what tends to happen is there's chemicals uder seals, (plastic tanks) where the top fits the tank (SS) etc.

Ian
 
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mgilbuena

mgilbuena

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More importantly you must use different water, distilled or deionised, it's quite likely the problems to do with your water supply. While commercial developers contain chelating agents and surfactants to help with most water supplies sometimes it's not enough. This could be why there's no problem with D76 only Rodinal.

It's unlikely there's a problem with the Rodinal itself, despite the various name changes it's still made in the same old Agfa factory with no changes.

Thanks Ian,

Based upon my tests (and I'm about to get some distilled water to test the above), I would have to agree that it is most likely a result of an impure water supply with minerals. As I live in the San Francisco Bay Area with water from the Hetch Hetchy reservoir, there are likely mineral impurities that are affecting the rodinal. A distilled water test should confirm this..
 

Ian Grant

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I have issues with the water where we live in Turkey, when the reservoirs get low (which is most of the spring to winter our tap water comes from a borehole and we are very close to the sea so it has a very high mineral content. That does affect some develoers D76 is more stable.

Ian
 

georgegrosu

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Is not necesary You use distilled water. Kodak in Processing Black-and-White Films (page 15-6 and 15-7) for the motion picture film says: http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uplo..._en_motion_support_processing_h2415_h2415.pdf

"Water Quality
A supply of good quality water is very important to motion-picture
processing. Although tap water may contain some
impurities, most impurities have no photographic effect.
Those you should be most careful of include large quantities
of suspended organic matter, hydrogen sulfide, particles of
finely divided sulfur, and soluble metallic sulfides. These
can cause serious trouble with developers. Fortunately, these
impurities are not common to most municipal water
supplies.
Processing Black-and-White Films 15-7
Organic matter usually precipitates on mixing the
developer, but biological growths and bacteria can thrive in
developer solutions, forming a slime or scum on the walls of
the tank. Certain types of these growths act on the sulfite in
the developer and change it to sodium sulfide, a chemical
which fogs the emulsion. Proper agitation and cleaning the
developer tank frequently will prevent this. If alum carries
into the wash water from the fixer, organic matter already in
the water coagulates and settles on the film. You can avoid
this by filtering the water, or by adding boric acid to an acid
fixing bath (up to a maximum of 15 grams per litre).
Extremely hard water may produce a finely divided
precipitate when you mix the developer solution. The
precipitate usually settles on standing, but even if it remains
in suspension, it has no adverse photographic effect. If the
precipitate is objectionable, add KODAK Anti-Calcium or
Quadrofos. You may also see a fine precipitate when you use
certain developers even though they were clear when mixed.
This is normal and does not indicate poor mixing or impure
water. Again, it has no adverse photographic effect.
A chemical analysis of the water supply usually reveals
very little concerning its photographic usefulness. The most
useful test is to prepare the required photographic solution
with the suspect water sample and actually try it. Compare
your results with those obtained with the same solution
prepared with distilled water. In most cases, both of the
solutions will be alike in their photographic effect, even if not
in appearance."

If is a problem with water, almost certainly would appear spots with all developer the fault mentioned by you. It is best to do test: tap water and distilled water. You see.
Kodak mentions in Processing Black-and-White Films, for the motion picture film, the municipal water quality corresponds to in general photo use. How the technical requirements for movie film is big, I consider that the use of tap water can be used without problems for photo.
You must have more attention in the preparation of the developer (mixing) and spots will be a souvenir for you.
You can test that using homogeneous developers no longer appropriate to wet film before developing.
George
 

Ian Grant

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Sorry George that's absolute rubbish.

Most - a very high percentage of - domestic water is fine but Kodak state in numerous publications that sometimes water supplies may cause problems. In fact it was standard practice in many commercial high quality labs to use treated water, distilled, deionised or filtered.

Secondly certain developers are more prone to problems with water as well.

So Rodinal which has a high pH and is used very dilute is not remotely like D76 or any of the other Motion picture developers which have high concentrations of Sulphite etc.

In fact with many highly dilute developers manufacturers suggest using distilled or de-ionised water. Kodak were one of them.

Ian
 

vpwphoto

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Wash problems... been there now and then
Re-wash.. possibly a quick re-fix.
I sometimes use some distilled water and photo flo solution.
Kim-wip the film when drippy wet and dry as usual.
 

BetterSense

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I used to mix hc110 directly in the development tank by squirting the syrup into the top of the tank and agitating it quickly. I go some mottled development.
 

georgegrosu

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Ian, use of distilled water in a photographic process can not only be beneficial. I think that imposing such a standard would discourage its implementation.
Does anyone have pictures of a comparative test with tap water and distilled water?
I would be curious to see it.
I agree with using a water filtration system.
There are filtration systems that can be programmed as a time to wash themselves. They are very useful.
I use bulk chemicals from developers. I have not experience with pre-packaged developer or concentrate developer.
And other developers I see that this failure on concentrate developer when after water is poured the concentrate, with the film inside.
It is no wonder that spots appear when you pour a developer of about 50 times more concentrated than the working solution.

I gave the document from Kodak fully, although the core was just the end:
Compare your results with those obtained with the same solution prepared with distilled water. In most cases, both of the solutions will be alike in their photographic effect, even if not in appearance.

Again, use distilled water in film processing can help.
George
 
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