Splotches on negatives -- thoughts?

[Rolleiflexible]

I've recently begun to see a line of splotches running intermittently down the right side of my negatives. I'm not doing anything differently, and am puzzled by what could be causing them. Here are links to two recent images in which they are visible:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

As always, the negatives are from 400TX exposed at EI 200 and souped in an HC-110 solution for six minutes, agitating four inversions every 30 seconds, and fixed 7-8 minutes in Kodafix. I process on Hewes reels in stainless steel tanks. Any ideas?

Sanders

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Sanders,

I experienced the problem you describe as 'splotches' towards the end of last year, and the answer was a change in agitation method. - No more splotches. Instead of turning the tank "up and down", I now agitate from side to side in a vertical circular motion (tank is still turned upside down) before giving the tank a quick horizontal turn and tap on the work surface.

I use Paterson plastic developing tanks, and agitate for 10 seconds each minute.

hope this helps,

Tom.

 

[AgX]

Tom, I have difficulties visualizing what you are doing:
rather a movement of the whole arm, than just the forearm??

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Tom, I have difficulties visualizing what you are doing:
rather a movement of the whole arm, than just the forearm??

- yes, moving the whole arm.

 

[Pinholemaster]

Don't forget to use anti-splotch solution 1:1 before the developer.

Only a joke, sorry for your troubles.

 

[dr5chrome]

This is a process related issue. In deep-tank processing it can be caused by too much or too little agitation. Since you are using the same soup either your methods [agitation] have changed or there is something wrong with the developer itself. NYC puts stuff into the water at certain times of the year. That we are going into spring this might be the case. We have had to deal with this issue before. It is usually a spike of Sodium Hydroxide in the water. I cant tell for sure unless I can look at the negs.

Try using bottled water to mix your chems.

dw


www.dr5.com

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I've had this happen too lately, all on Fuji film. Two rolls of Neopan 400 120 rolls, and one roll of Neopan 1600 35mm. Since it's spring time with a lot of 'stuff' melting into the Mississippi River (our water source) I'm sure they're adding various chemicals to compensate for that. I'm buying distilled water today.

These rolls were stand developed with only initial agitation, then stand for 40-45m.

- Thomas

 

[Dave Miller]

Please do a search as this problem has been discussed at length within the last month.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

Dave, I did a quick look before opening a new thread and did not see a useful thread. Can you provide a link?

I agree with Doctor Five that it would seem to be a processing issue but the pattern of the occurrence suggests to me that it is not a water quality issue, otherwise the blotches would be more random, instead of being lined up at the right rebate, yes? And I've been processing in New York City water for a decade now without anything like this. The HC-110 was fresh a month ago, bought from B+H, so I don't think it's a developer issue.

Puzzling, this. I would think it is a flaw in the emulsion except it's Tri-X and Kodak never flubs Tri-X.

Sanders

 

[Dave Miller]

Try this one: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Hope it helps.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

Try this one: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Hope it helps.

Dave, thanks for the reference. The good news is that my problem looks identical to Aurelien's. The bad news is that none of the suggestions for fixing it applies in my case.

Avoid plastic reels: I already use steel reels.

Don't dunk reels in Photo-flo: I don't ever do that. I rinse my film on the reels for 20-30 minutes, then take the film off the reels and run the film through Photo-flo. So the reels should be clean.

Not enough developer/fixer: I fill my tanks to overflowing.

Air bubbles: I bang the tanks on the countertop after filling to dislodge bubbles, and agitate for 10-15 seconds immediately afterward.

A puzzlement.

Sanders

 

[Dave Miller]

Well, I use plastic reels, and suffered the problem on occasion, but only on one film edge as yours seems to be. If it were contamination surely it should be on both sides of the film? I'm coming around to thinking it may be too much or too regular agitation, where the aerated developer flows around the spool. It's certainly caused by localised under development.

 

[Rick Olson]

Sanders ... Here is my response from that thread:

I have had the same problems with my 120 along the top of the film ... started with Paterson reels and tanks, and it was especially noticeable with EMA (extreme minimum agitation) development, but also with my standard development with agitation once a minute. I tried numerous suggestions offered from APUG and elsewhere. Rewashed the reels in hot water and the dishwasher to remove any traces of Photo-flo, made sure the developer volume was well over the reels, agitation smooth but vigorous, rapped the tank after each cycle ... no luck. Someone advised to use a steel reel system. Guess what ... that worked for the standard development but I still had some bubbles (although less) when doing my EMA development.

Well today, I tried another experiment and devised an agitation method for an EMA roll based on swirling and erratic agitation but WITHOUT ANY INVERSION. I figured that this would still produce effective replacement of the developer against the emulsion without producing any bubbles. This worked GREAT with no bubble marks on the film.

Problem solved! Good Luck.

Rick

Dave, thanks for the reference. The good news is that my problem looks identical to Aurelien's. The bad news is that none of the suggestions for fixing it applies in my case.

Avoid plastic reels: I already use steel reels.

Don't dunk reels in Photo-flo: I don't ever do that. I rinse my film on the reels for 20-30 minutes, then take the film off the reels and run the film through Photo-flo. So the reels should be clean.

Not enough developer/fixer: I fill my tanks to overflowing.

Air bubbles: I bang the tanks on the countertop after filling to dislodge bubbles, and agitate for 10-15 seconds immediately afterward.

A puzzlement.

Sanders

 

[Bob Carnie]

Sanders
I think it is an agitation problem as Tom and others have pointed out.
To describe and agitation technique we use is as follows assuming you are using a tank to hold the spiral film reels.
Pretend you are sitting at the wheel of your car. Put your one hand on the top of the steering wheel and put the other hand on the bottom of the steering wheel. Now completely turn the wheel so that the bottom hand is at the top and the top hand is at the bottom.
You will see a twisting motion happens as well as a full inversion.We have found this twisting motion to be the best method for hand agitation.
Placing the tank in your hands and twisting this way gives a very good and predictable rotation and agitation.
The first 15 seconds of agitation in any process is the most critical and I would agitate immediately once your chems are in.
As well I would use distilled water, this will increase the laminar flow and get the chems to your emulsion faster.
Nuetral grey backgrounds are a bitch to control with development so you must be fast getting the chems to the whole film. In Aurelons case it looks like minus density splotches that are consistant in my mind to lack of agitation and chem to film speed.
I am not a subscriber so I was not able to view your images.
Hope this helps.
Bob

 

[Dave Miller]

The common point here is the plain mid grey background, presumably because it does show the problem to maximum effect. But one question Bob. How on earth does distilled water promote "laminar flow"?

 

[Rolleiflexible]

Okay, now that I am thinking agitation, I HAVE varied my routine in recent weeks -- but in the fixer, not the developer. Out of boredom, I have taken to rolling the steel tanks back and forth across the kitchen countertop. the flow of fixer when rolled would be consistent with the line of splotches along the right rebate. But why only along one side, and not both? Maybe it is the side next to the top of the tank? Maybe the rolling froths the fixer, and when I stand the tank upright the edge at the top finds the froth?

I'll refrain from my rolling fixer agitation next time and see what happens. I thought the fixing stage was not so critical a time for the final image, and that rotating agitation was fine with my Jobo tanks so why not the steel tanks and reels?

So: Could fixer agitation be the culprit? Does fixing have that much effect on film density, to leave such splotches?

Dave, Aurelien, others: How do you agitate when you fix?

Sanders

 

[Bob Carnie]

Distilled water is sans minerals or for practical purposes mineral free.
The minerals in tap water will cause friction which slows down the ability of chemicals reaching film. Gordon Hutchings book on Pyro describes the benifits of using distilled water for this reason and other benifits.
I have done grey background tests for the problems Sanders seem to be expressing and distilled water will get the chems to the emulsion much faster than that of tap water in any large city.
What I did not express fully in my first post is in Aurleans images you will see that the band of minus density is not a consistant black line but splotchy which IMO is due to inconsistant development in the initial stage of development which on grey backgrounds are killers.
If you process 35mm roll this problem is even worse due to the sprocket holes. Even with colour film we take the film off the processor and do a manual twist as I described and we use distilled water for C41 process as well and not mineral loaded tap water.
After processing 30-50 thousand rolls of film in colour and black and white with my film company I have noticed this to be a common problem no matter what method is used to process film.
This flow of chemicals onto the film*laminar flow* *and I may be using the wrong term* is probably the most critical part of processing.
In my first years of processing for others , I purchased 40 35mm stainless steel reels *kinderman I believe* that did not have a open core but a closed one. I found on the third or fourth frame I cannot remember which one, a minus density mark that was extremely faint but there. Complex images were not a problem but anything with nuetral like some skys would show the mark. I immediately returned the reels and swithched to open core reels and the problem dissapeared. I attribute this to the flow action of the developer in the initial stages of development .
If the truth were known this minus density problem is much more prevelent in negatives but our eyes are fooled by complex images or just not printing the negative dark enough.
Shoot a 18% grey card and do your normal process or have your lab process the film and then put the negative in your enlarger*assuming it is even* and print the grey down and look for faults.I think most photographers would be shocked with the results.
It is really hard to get an even tone corner to corner.

The common point here is the plain mid grey background, presumably because it does show the problem to maximum effect. But one question Bob. How on earth does distilled water promote "laminar flow"?

 

[Bob Carnie]

Hi Dave
I just googled laminar flow , it kind of describes what I am talking about.

The common point here is the plain mid grey background, presumably because it does show the problem to maximum effect. But one question Bob. How on earth does distilled water promote "laminar flow"?

 

[bdial]

I don't see how bubbles in the fixer could cause that, it seems like if there were partially fixed areas they would have more density in the negative, and would be pretty obvious on the film. Since the spots are darker in the print, they lack density.
Are you filling the tank completely (with developer), that is, all the way into the lids light trap?

 

[Rolleiflexible]

Are you filling the tank completely (with developer), that is, all the way into the lids light trap?

Yes.

 

[AgX]

One explanation of such spots is the interaction with residues of metallic silver within the drum and on the spirals. These residues are predominantly caused by the use of fine-grain developers with a high degree of sulphite.
Spots are said to be formed where pure developing solution works on the emulsion in the inaitial phase. Thus, in addition a problem of kinetics. But we are speaking of time ranges of parts a second.
Try a bleach of your eqipment.

Laminar flow.
To my understanding, based on the works of photo engineers and even a German normalisation, laminar flow is counterproductive. Expecially in the intial phase.

 

[AgX]

Minerals in tap water
Those can have a delaying influence on establishing a steady-state in a fresh made working solution.

Kinetics
One should aim at achieving a non-laminar flux without any steady `pattern´.
As we are employing those black boxes no one really knows what is going on inside.

Transparent drums would be great.

 

[bdial]

When you tap the tank to dislodge bubbles, do you have the pouring lid off? (so as to not trap the air in the tank).

 

[AgX]

Thus, I just started the simpleton season...

 

[Dave Miller]

Hi Dave
I just googled laminar flow , it kind of describes what I am talking about.

Thanks for the explanation Bob, I use distilled water for mixing my developer when I have it available. Otherwise it gets tap water. Now the question is did I get the problem when I used which water?:confused:

I quite agree with your comments about plain backgrounds, that's when the problem bites, if it's going to.