Splotches on negatives -- thoughts?

AgX · May 11, 2007

Many thanks Mick,

Your German is fine. In this discussion it would rather be „Randstreifen“ (edge area) as we are talking about type 120(220?)
However strange that I can’t remember ever to have come across `rebate´ in all those years…

bye

dancqu · May 11, 2007

AgX said:
No result what could fit.

My dictionary: A deduction from a gross
amount. When not remembering rebate
I have used surround. Dan

Bob Carnie · May 11, 2007

Sanders

When you are experiencing these kinds of problems. The last thing you want to do is to *think* to hard what the problem is.
I have always found any processing problems to be some simple little thing.
Take for example a white card off the base of the enlarger easel. long exposure and all of a sudden you have plus density marks on your prints.
You have never seen it before, it is there but for the life of you it does not make sense therefore you *think* about what the problem is rather than *look* take the card off the baseboard and the marks go away.
Minus density marks on film are generally caused by underdevelopment in those particular areas. You now have to look to see what is causing those marks with a series of tests . Others here suggest something in the rebate causing the mark and I agree. do not get mislead by what side of the rebate your sprocket pressure marks are on , they could manifest the pattern on the other side of the film . getting an even and consistant flow of dev on the emulsion is critical and something is stopping this from happening in your case.
We stopped running 120 film in our Jobos at one point about 3 years ago for a few months because we were getting road ruts *large minus density * patterns running the length of the film , and only on certain films within the 8 roll tank.
We tried everything to solve this and it drove me nuts.

the solution:
Put the film in the tanks
Start the Jobo rotation and fill the tank with chem.
After one rotation, take the tank off the machine and manually rotate.
Put back on machine , do one rotation.
Take back off the machine and manually rotate.
Put back on the machine and finish the dev.
All this in the first 20seconds of dev.

Sanders: do you think I got this information from Jobo?

It came from shooting over 50 rolls of film and trying every damm thing that could possibly cause the road ruts in our film. We even turned the machine around as this was recommended by someone.

We lost clients through this period as you can imagine , but I now know how to eliminate road ruts.
The solution is right before your eyes, I am confident you will find the solution.

Amund · May 13, 2007

I`m pretty sure it`s a processing problem, I see this sometimes on my films too, shot with a Bronica Etrs, wich have no gears touching the film at all.
I had to change the way I agitate to get rid of the marks.
I`ll upload an example of the marks on my films. Top right.

Bob Carnie · May 13, 2007

Good post , it does look exactly like the same problem.

Amund said:
I`m pretty sure it`s a processing problem, I see this sometimes on my films too, shot with a Bronica Etrs, wich have no gears touching the film at all.
I had to change the way I agitate to get rid of the marks.
I`ll upload an example of the marks on my films. Top right.

Rolleiflexible · May 13, 2007

Well, I processed five rolls yesterday. In the fix stage, I agitated by inversion instead of rolling the tank back and forth on the countertop. Problem solved.

So, the spots appeared when I started agitating by rolling at the fixing stage, and went away when I stopped. Cause? Or coincidence?

Sanders

Bob Carnie · May 13, 2007

Did you agitate or roll on your counter in the Development stage??
remember this is a minus density on film, which produces dark splotches.
Are you using a stop bath?
Not sure how the fixing stage can be the problem. Sorry to be so persistant but enquiring minds need to know.

Sanders McNew said:
Well, I processed five rolls yesterday. In the fix stage, I agitated by inversion instead of rolling the tank back and forth on the countertop. Problem solved.

So, the spots appeared when I started agitating by rolling at the fixing stage, and went away when I stopped. Cause? Or coincidence?

Sanders

Bob Carnie · May 13, 2007

Sanders
It just occured to me that this thread is 6 pages long and I am trying to convince you its in the dev. I think you need to convince me how it can be in the fix.
Or I am going to stop responding and take my toys home with me.

Dave Miller · May 13, 2007

Leave your toys just where they are Bob, I'm convinced it's a development function, so don't leave the party just yet.

Rolleiflexible · May 13, 2007

Guys, no, I have always agitated the same way in the developer. To recap: I use 400TX, HC-110, Hewes reels and Galt steel tanks. I fill to the brim, rap sharply on the counter, agitate constantly for 10-15 seconds, then give four gentle inversions every 30 seconds.

I got these funny marks when I started agitating the fixer (Kodafix at the recommended dilution) by rolling the tanks back and forth on the countertop. That's just an association, I know, maybe a coincidence. Like you, I have a hard time seeing how that could be the cause. And I am still puzzled that it occurred only on the right-hand side of the film.

As I jsut reported, I reverted to my old inversion method of agitating the fix, and the problem disappeared. That's just an association, I know. Maybe a coincidence.

Bob, you express frustration with me, that my problem and my seeming solution do not conform to your understanding of what goes on inside the tank. So be it. But maybe, instead of getting frustrated with me, and trying to convince me of what you presume to be true, you should free yourself of your preconceptions and deal with the phenomena as I am reporting them. They make no sense to me either. I'll be shooting and processing a lot of film in the next few days and will continue to report my results.

Sanders

Bob Carnie · May 13, 2007

Sanders
fair enough
it is your problem and I do have preconcieved ideas.

Here is what helped me

The Book of Pyro by Gordon Hutchings.
Pages 20, 38
specifically page 42
less of importance in your paticular case but relevent to all film processes
pages 52,53,54,55

any lootenss book on photography which describes the precise purpose and effect of.
Development
Stop
Fix
on a film emulsion.

I am not frustrated with you just trying to help good luck with your reading.
Bob

Rolleiflexible · May 13, 2007

Bob, I appreciate the good wishes. As for the reading list, I've not read Hutchings or Lootenss, but many years ago I read everything I could get my hands on about the basics of darkroom work -- Saint Ansel's series and too many Kodak publications and, more recently, everything I could find on the subject on the internet. I am not a newbie at darkroom work. I understand the theory. That's why I am as puzzled as you by the seeming association in this case between fixer agitation and splotches. That's why I didn't even bother to mention it in the first post. And that's why I continue to have an open mind about what's going on inside my tanks. Sanders

Bob Carnie · May 13, 2007

Sanders

I want you to admit one thing to me right now.please

When you just processed the last few rolls with no marks you were more aware of agitation and rotation than you were one month ago. I will bet you a dinner and beers in New York this fall you were.

You may have solved your problem and we will saw off that it is agitation and rotation* we will leave out whether it is in the fix or dev for now*
We Canadians have very strong forearms because of all the lifting of beers to keep us sane in the long winter months and since I listen to music at all times when processing film or paper we are very limber due to all the dancing. Therefore we Canadians do not get minus density marks on our film .
best regards
Bob

Sanders McNew said:
Bob, I appreciate the good wishes. As for the reading list, I've not read Hutchings or Lootenss, but many years ago I read everything I could get my hands on about the basics of darkroom work -- Saint Ansel's series and too many Kodak publications and, more recently, everything I could find on the subject on the internet. I am not a newbie at darkroom work. I understand the theory. That's why I am as puzzled as you by the seeming association in this case between fixer agitation and splotches. That's why I didn't even bother to mention it in the first post. And that's why I continue to have an open mind about what's going on inside my tanks. Sanders

Mick Fagan · May 14, 2007

Bob, I have visions of a Monty Pythonesque Canadian dressed up and dancing away in the darkroom to the tune of, "I'm a lumberjack and I love film................."

I'm still laughing.

Mick.

Willie Jan · May 14, 2007

i was having the same problem with my across 100 (120 format) in jobo tank and my fp4+ 4x5" in jobo tank. I develop in pyrocat HD.

After adding a presoak of 3 minutes before development I did not see this problem anymore until now.

Rolleiflexible · May 14, 2007

Bob Carnie said:
I want you to admit one thing to me right now.please

When you just processed the last few rolls with no marks you were more aware of agitation and rotation than you were one month ago. I will bet you a dinner and beers in New York this fall you were.

Bob, if it will get me a free dinner, I'll admit to most anything.

Honestly, I didn't do anything else differently, that I was aware of. I just processed six more rolls last night, in the same manner as my previous post, and got no splotches. (I've posted scans from three frames under the title "Three Rubies" in the Critique gallery, if you'd like to see samples.)

It's voodoo, I'm telling you.

When are you coming to New York? Spare me some time when you plan your trip.

Sanders.

Bob Carnie · May 14, 2007

Ok Sanders
your on, I hope to be in your city in the fall to promote our printing services as well scout out a few locations to show work.
I would love to meet a few of the NY apugers when I'm there and your dinner will be on me.
Only if you say>> You were right Bob and others, The problem I was having was insufficient agitation, and I promise not to be so stubborn in the future.

Sanders McNew said:
Bob, if it will get me a free dinner, I'll admit to most anything.

Honestly, I didn't do anything else differently, that I was aware of. I just processed six more rolls last night, in the same manner as my previous post, and got no splotches. (I've posted scans from three frames under the title "Three Rubies" in the Critique gallery, if you'd like to see samples.)

It's voodoo, I'm telling you.

When are you coming to New York? Spare me some time when you plan your trip.

Sanders.

Rolleiflexible · May 14, 2007

Of course you were right Bob, The problem I was having was insufficient agitation, and I promise not to be so stubborn in the future.

Where's dinner? :-D

We had an APUG mini-feed here a few months ago -- me and Jersey Vic and Guillaume Zuili and David Goldfarb. Let us know when you're coming, and we'll try to arrange something.

Sanders

Rolleiflexible · May 25, 2007

Oh no! They're baaaaack.

Bob, mea culpa.

I shot yesterday and processed in the revised usual fashion. Splotches. This time on the left side of the negative.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Observations:

1. I fixed with inversion agitation, so rolling the tanks during fixing isn't it (as you said, see, I can admit error with the best of them).

2. The splotches are on the left side, so it isn't an exposure issue. (Again, I was WRONG WRONG WRONG.)

3. I bow to conventional wisdom, and will again try to figure out how I can unsplotch things.

Sanders

fhovie · May 25, 2007

I had EXACTLY that set of splotches - my experience was with FP4 - It happened when I was using the big tanks - over 3 liters of developer. I found that inversion with 1.25 liters or less could be kind of brisk but with the big tank, the force of all that fluid created eddys around the spools. The corrective action was to make my inversions VERY Gently so as not to cause excessive chemical mechanical force around the spool edges. I did 6 rolls of film the other day in one batch and had no trouble. I also found that TRI-X is less suseptable to this condition.

- I also believe that plastic reels can hold traces of other chemistries from one session to another that can cause a similar issue. I know that when I was using DiXactol (a VERY weak Cetechol 2 bath developer) I had better sucess with SS tanks and reels because chemistry could not stay in the pours of the plastic. I have never had this occur using single roll SS tanks.

I have also never had this happen with semi stand processes - which makes wonderful results with FP4 - For portraits - Pyrocat-P 1:1:150 for 54 minutes with 4 agitations every 10minutes 48secondes - VERY gentle inversions and slow twists at 70deg F will take a range of 5 stops (typical softbox) and give me a DR of 1.3 or so. Also with the semistand - there is a huge bump in accutance which I like for my style of portraits. The same process for 34 minutes works great for SBR of 7 or more - great for average landscapes. - Of course for Big SBR scenes - I use TRI-X.

Bob Carnie · May 26, 2007

You Slut
anything for a free meal, appease the old guy will you.

Threads on APUG last three weeks delving into the same problem

Uneven tonality *thread by jmal*
dark lines & sprocket holes *Andrewmoodle*
and as well this thread by *Sandersanythingforameal McNew*

Sanders McNew said:
Bob, mea culpa.

grey cards, grey cards grey cards, process process process.
patience and persistance will solve the problems.

I shot yesterday and processed in the revised usual fashion. Splotches. This time on the left side of the negative.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Observations:

1. I fixed with inversion agitation, so rolling the tanks during fixing isn't it (as you said, see, I can admit error with the best of them).

2. The splotches are on the left side, so it isn't an exposure issue. (Again, I was WRONG WRONG WRONG.)

3. I bow to conventional wisdom, and will again try to figure out how I can unsplotch things.

Sanders

AgX · May 30, 2007

needles and pins...

Sanders,

Perhaps you should really investigate on this issue of voodoo...

Ben 4 · Aug 29, 2007

Reviving This Again

Sanders,

Did you ever track down the source of the splotches to your satisfaction? I ask because I have similar splotches on a roll of 120 Tri-X developed this week (except mine are on the left edge of the frame). Only happened to me once before, and that was years ago.

--Ben

Splotches on negatives -- thoughts?

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