Split darkslide on 4x5?

[Kino]

Anyone ever done this with success?

Seems like a more reasonable approach for me, rather than lusting after a 7x17 or 8x20 that will never come.

I'd have to enlarge the negs, but that shouldn't be a problem if I don't cut the composite negs after processing.

Kind of kills varying subject matter though if you expose with the Zone system. Guess you can always make a backup neg...

Dang, that sounds bad. Starting to talk myself out of it already...

Now how much WAS that 7x17?

 

[Sanjay Sen]

IIRC, I think Anupam Basu does this. I saw one of his images shot on a 4x5 with a split darkslide - cannot recall if it was here or over at the LFPF.

Edit: Anupam's latest image posted in the (there was a url link here which no longer exists) is done with a split dark slide on 4x5.

 

[Lee L]

I've done this with a cut down dark slide, but am just getting started with it. I haven't enlarged anything yet. You need to be careful about keeping track of which half of the sheet of film is exposed and which isn't. A consistent pattern of usage is helpful, as are post-it notes on the full-sized dark slide you're using.

I got my slide from benderphoto.com It wasn't cheap, but I wanted to try it and didn't have an extra slide on hand, and didn't want to purchase more holders to cut up one slide. And it's much cheaper than a 6x12 rollfilm back and has a greater aspect ratio. The Bender slide I got is cut right to the limit of image overlap with a 135mm lens and rise/fall applied.

If you want to use the lens centered on the image, you'll need to use an inch or so of rise/fall or left/right shift on alternate images, or to spin your camera back 180 degrees and use only rise or fall.

I am also considering having a machinist friend modify or make a negative carrier to center the negatives in the enlarger so I get to use the best part of the enlarging lens.

Think of it this way; it's a cheap exercise to see if you like working in panoramic format enough to move up to a bigger negative.

Lee

 

[Vaughn]

I have been using a darkslide I cut for awhile now -- though I did it with an 8x10. I had some trashed holders, so I ended up with some extra darkslides.

What you need to think about is :

1. Don't cut it at the halfway point -- if you cut 1/8" shy of halfway, you'll get 1/4" between the two negs.

2. Leave enough darkslide uncut near the handle of the darkslide to form a good light-seal all the way across. I took a pencil and traced the actual opening onto the darkslide (while it was in the holder) to help with this.

3. Figure a secure way to store the cut slide. I eventually broke my first one as I just tossed in in with the rest of the holders. You won't have this option, but for my second one I made I used a metal darkslide (from a medical X-ray 8x10 holder).

In use, one does have to keep on top of what is going on -- I have fogged a few sheets of film and have had a double exposure on one half and nothing on the other half! It doesn't pay to rush when one is getting use to using it!

For hortizontals, instead of re-composing the same scene to expose the other half, I take the back off and rotate it 180 degrees. If you can remove the darkslide downwards, you can do the same for verticals. This way you can get two shots off relatively quickly

If you do not have enough rise on your front standard to hit the "sweet spot" of your lens, you can point the camera upwards and use rear and front tilt to mimic additional rise.

One other option...

If you prefer to make only one 2x5 exposure per negative, you can cut a hole in the center of the darkslide. There is about 3/8" you can leave on the end of the darkslide at the flap end of the holder. This will be little harder to cut and the darkslide might be a little more fragile -- but it gives you the option of using a different proportion -- say 1:2 (2.5"x5") if that is more pleasing. Also the image will be centered in the sweet spot without using rise/fall. You will be less likely to make mistakes remembering which half you already exposed, etc!

Another advantage of cutting a hole and getting one 2x5 neg in the center of the 4x5 -- you will be in the sweet spot of your enlarging lens, also. But you can always make a 2x5 neg holder for your enlarger (just enlarge/lengthen the hole on a 2 1/4 neg holder -- might be too wide?) and cut your negs in half if you go the 2 negs per 4x5 route.

I cut my negs in half, but then I make 4x10 pt/pd ptints with them (actually 3.5"x9.5" image area.)

Have fun!

Vaughn

 

[Prospero]

Works fine. I bought a bunch of old film holders, which contained one dark slide too many. Cut the slide in half using a craft knife. Results are good:

 

[Nick Zentena]

A lot of older cameras had sliding split backs. This let you take two photos on one negative. So the idea of multiple photos on one negative is well tested.

 

[eddie gunks]

i just cut down an old holder as described above. works fine. generally i ty to expose both sides of the sheet to try and make it easier to keep track on which i already exposed. removing the back and turning it 180 degrees works well too. i have had no problems with fogging or anything. ( i even cut it in half....i never thought to leave an 1/8 inch!)

have fun.

eddie

 

[noseoil]

There is one part of this I'm having trouble following. I understand that it is possible to just cut the dark-slide and get an extra shot from a film holder, but am curious about the holder and how it works. Since the darkslide is pushed in place with half of it removed, how does the light trap function when it is just being inserted or removed part way? I think of the light trap as a series of baffles which are displaced when the slide is moved. As the slide is being moved, doesn't it allow some light to slip through adjacent to the cut edge and cause fogging? tim

Stewart, it looks as if my concerns are not well founded. Was his image done with an older film holder, or one of the newer plastic models?

 

[Nick Zentena]

Don't you fully remove your dark slide to flip it over?

 

[Kino]

This is what I really like about APUG; such a rich response filled with very practical details!

Sensanjay -- thanks for that link, I didn't see that before.

LeeL -- I can understand the need to be careful as to which side of the slide has been exposed; I get regular slides mixed up in my excitement, so it will be doubly hard! * I wonder if you could simply cut with a craft knife a insert out of matte board or thin plastic to insert in a standard 4x5 glassless negative carrier that would center a split negative in the holder?

Vaugh -- lots of great info here, but I'm confused about how the 1/8 inch rebate would work. You would wind up with one half slightly larger than the other, unless you modified the holder to have a permanent rib in the center and then have two very small dark slides. (edit; the rib is a stupid idea; how would you load film? *forehead slap*)

After thinking it over, if I did it your way, I would assume it would have to follow these steps:

1. Insert the film holder in the camera with all slides inserted for the first exposure.
2. Retract the small side, expose.
3 Immediately pull remaining dark slide all the way out and flip it over and reinsert it.
4. Flip and replace small slide.
5. Rotate back
6. Remove holder to compose and expose 2nd half.

What did I miss?

Stewart -- Very nice! Any problems with light leaks? Do you take special precautions?

Nick -- Yes, I thought it had been done many times, I just couldn't find much on it after a casual search of APUG.

Everyone else, thanks! Lots to mull over here...

 

[Vaughn]

Good Morning! Perhaps I will be more clear in the light of day instead of writing in the early morning hours during breaks in the darkroom (but no guarentees!)!

Kino, When I cut the darkslide, the "half" I leave is slightly larger than the "half" I cut away -- by an 1/8" or so. The center 1/4" of the negative is never exposed because when one makes the first exposure and then flips the modified darkslide over for the second exposure, the wider remaining portion of the darkslide always covers it.

These are the steps (for a hortizontal image)...

1. Compose the shot for either the top half or bottom half of the GG -- let's say for this example you compose for the top half of the GG. Raise lens to get sweet spot centered on the top half of GG.

2. Insert film holder (close lens first!) and remove the complete (whole, unmodified, original) darkslide.

3. Insert modified darkslide so that the missing portion is on top, allowing light to hit the top part of the neg during exposure.

4. Expose

5. Remove modified darkslide and insert the complete darkslide!!!!

If one is going to make another exposure of the same scene, rotate back 180 degrees...no need to remove film holder...then;

6. Remove complete darkslide,

7. Insert modified darkslide so that the missing portion is again at the top (the holder was rotated 180 degrees along with the back, so the exposed half is now at the bottom).

8. Expose -- and then remover modified darkslide, insert complete darkslide and you are done.

If you don't rotate the back 180 degrees for the second shot on the negative, after step 5, remove the film holder and recompose for the bottom half of the GG. (lower the lens to center sweet spot on bottom hald of GG). Then insert film holder and remove complete darkslide. Insert modified darkslide, making sure that the missing half of the modified darkslide is on the bottom so that the bottom half of the negative will be exposed. Expose, remove modified darkslide, insert complete darkslide and then remove film holder.

BTW...Darkslides, up at the handle, have white on one side and black on the other. I take a black marker and black out the half of the white on the modified darkslide that corresponds to the missing portion of the darkslide -- helps to keep track of things!

Nick...yes.

Noseoil...one does not cut the darkslide all the way to its handle. With the darkslide one is going to modify in the film holder, take a pencil and mark the darkslide at the edge of the image area at the handle end of the holder. Remove the darkslide and only cut the darkslide just past the line you drew -- this leaves the entire width of the darkslide intact where it is in the light trap of the holder.

A picture is worth a 1000 words...here is a link to a photo of bender's modified darkslide -- it is an 8x10, but the idea is the same for 4x5.

http://www.benderphoto.com/4x10pa.htm

Vaughn

 

[Jon Shiu]

Hi, I was wondering if it would be simpler just to mask and do one picture per negative. Maybe less chance of messing up?

Jon

 

[Lee L]

LeeL -- I can understand the need to be careful as to which side of the slide has been exposed; I get regular slides mixed up in my excitement, so it will be doubly hard! * I wonder if you could simply cut with a craft knife a insert out of matte board or thin plastic to insert in a standard 4x5 glassless negative carrier that would center a split negative in the holder?

I could do that, but I have a friend who's a machinist who'll do work for me for free when he can fit it in. I don't keep track of how long it takes, or nag him, and I always show appreciation for the excellent work he does. So I get custom work for free. I supply materials most of the time, but occasionally he'll supply from his scrap bin. So with a bit of aluminum or a smaller carrier (I happen to have picked up a 126 carrier for nothing recently), I can hand him something nearly complete and just request the right size rectangle and perhaps a couple of registration pins. Someone without these luxuries could certainly make something from other materials that would work.

Lee

 

[Kino]

2. Insert film holder (close lens first!) and remove the complete (whole, unmodified, original) darkslide.

(snip)
Vaughn

Vaughn,

Ah, that explains a lot! Thanks!

Stewart and Eddie; you do the same, or do you just tote the actual, split darkslide around and not worry about the fogging?

 

[DougGrosjean]

Thanks for the interesting topic. Timely for me, as I have a darkslide that's damaged - and cutting out the damage would result in a 1/2 darkslide, that I could use for pano. Cool..!

 

[Kino]

Hi, I was wondering if it would be simpler just to mask and do one picture per negative. Maybe less chance of messing up?

Jon

Yeah, I guess you could do that but the waste... hurts my Scottish soul!

 

[dslater]

Hi, I was wondering if it would be simpler just to mask and do one picture per negative. Maybe less chance of messing up?

Jon

Hmm - If you were going to do that, I wonder if it would make more sense to cut a hole that is centered in the darkslide instead of cutting away one side - then your image area would still be centered in your ground glass - you also might be able to retain a thin strip at the bottom of the darkslide to help maintain rigidity.

Dan

 

[Kino]

OK some success....

I sat down at the dinner table today and with a craft knife, cut a darkslide down to roughly half of the normal width. I didn't get it exactly straight and probably will go back and trim it up more square, but I only had an hour before the kids came back and I rushed it.

Surprising how hard a darkslide is to cut...

After I cut it, I ran outside and set up my 4x5, hoping to do some BTZS semi-stand processing on Efke 100, when I discovered my spot meter was acting erratic.

Drop back punt and do the sunny 16 thing...

Here they are; not pretty, but proof I did it and that D76 on Efke looks really weird semi-stand processed -- 30 sec initial agitation, 4 min stand and 30 secs agitation, then stand for 4 minutes and dump.

Again, I was working between arrival and departures of wife and kids, so I rushed everything, but I got an image.

The slide is crooked and I got a light leak at the flap end of the holder. I used one holder and took the light slide from the other side to cover the film while transporting and composing, so maybe it leaked across from the other side? I don't know...

Efke 100 - 1/8th sec @ f64 -- 8 min semi stand D76, forced air dried -- neg scan with no curves applied, just Epson autoexposure on scan.

 

[Vaughn]

The slide is crooked and I got a light leak at the flap end of the holder. I used one holder and took the light slide from the other side to cover the film while transporting and composing, so maybe it leaked across from the other side? I don't know...

There is a little bit of slop designed into holders -- so that one can actually get the darkslide in and out without having to grease it up. So one has to pay attention to how one seats the modifies darkslide into the holder (one can use this slop to slightly alter the distance between two exposures on a sheet of film). But one still has to be sure to seat the modified slide squarely into the holder.

In theory, holders should not leak from one side to the other. Judging from you negs, it looks like you rotated the back for the second shot. Did you have the full darkslide in place when you rotated the back? If not, that is where you might have gotten the fogging -- but I can't tell because you cropped out the rebate. (fog from a light leak in the holder tends to fog therebate portion -- a leak from the camera back tends not to fog the rebate area.)

Vaughn

 

[Vaughn]

Thanks for the interesting topic. Timely for me, as I have a darkslide that's damaged - and cutting out the damage would result in a 1/2 darkslide, that I could use for pano. Cool..!

LOL! That is what got me thinking about modifing a darkslide in the first place! The larger the format, the easier it is to damage a darkslide!

Vaughn

PS...I have a damaged 11x14 darkslide...5"x14" images would be wonderful...now I just have to get an 11x14 camera...

 

[Kino]

There is a little bit of slop designed into holders -- so that one can actually get the darkslide in and out without having to grease it up. So one has to pay attention to how one seats the modifies darkslide into the holder (one can use this slop to slightly alter the distance between two exposures on a sheet of film). But one still has to be sure to seat the modified slide squarely into the holder.

I thought I was fairly careful, but then again, I was moving rather fast...

In theory, holders should not leak from one side to the other. Judging from you negs, it looks like you rotated the back for the second shot. Did you have the full darkslide in place when you rotated the back? If not, that is where you might have gotten the fogging -- but I can't tell because you cropped out the rebate. (fog from a light leak in the holder tends to fog therebate portion -- a leak from the camera back tends not to fog the rebate area.)

Vaughn

Here's a blowup of the cropped rebate area that is fogged, so it was probably the holder...

Yes, I am pretty sure I put the full darkslide back in before I rotated the back. However, I DID take the holder out of the camera between exposures, so that may just be a freaky coincidence and there may be a pinhole there; will have to check it out...

 

[Vaughn]

I meant the rebate are around the edge of the negative.

vaughn

 

[eddie gunks]

i take the dark slide out and put in my half slide. take the picture, then reinstall the full slide. then i compose the second shot take out the full slide and put the half slide back in )in the correct spot). i have no fogging problems. i could not believe it either.

eddie

 

[Vaughn]

Just thought I'd include an example of my use of the modified darkslide.

4x10 image...platinum/palladium print

Redwoods, Bull Creek Flat

 

[Kino]

OK...

It now looks like a camera leak that had to occur while changing darkslides, must have hole in my bellows or something similar.