Speed Graphic - using wide and long lenses

richyd · Jun 3, 2020

I have a Super Graphic and find it difficult to use with a 90mm Angulon and a 210 lens, mainly because the infinity positions for these focal lengths is right toward the end of the rails and don't leave any room for securing infinity stops. This means I have to mark the rails and careful try to align the standard with these marks which is difficult as there is no centre click position.

With a 90mm lens movements are very limited because it lies so close to the body. This is compounded when the back is rotated for portrait orientation as you have to drop the bed, otherwise the end encroaches into the image area, and to achieve focus you then have to place the lens even further back and apply back tilt, which can just about be done but the lens is right at the limit of the rails.

Any tips or experiences with these issues?

juan · Jun 3, 2020

Yes. The 90mm does limit movements. You just have to live with it. I’m surprised by the 210. I’ve used one, and while I have to extend the bellows quite a ways, I’m sure there was room for infinity stops. Unfortunately, the camera is currently being held hostage by the Coronavirus and riots in NYC, so I can’t check it for you. With the 210, are you checking focus on the ground glass?

Dan Fromm · Jun 3, 2020

The standard solution is to place the stops where convenient and make a spacer to fit between the standard and the stops. The spacer has to be sized to put the standard in the right place.

For the 210, put the stops behind the standard, not in front of it. To use, fold the stops down, pull the standard past them, flip the stops up and push the standard back to them. Again, the stops have to be in the right place ...

Donald Qualls · Jun 3, 2020

Unless you're using the RF, the infinity stop is just a time saver for focusing on the ground glass. I'm pretty sure the 90mm wasn't considered in the design of that camera -- most were sold with 127 and 135 mm lenses, and a 105 is fairly wide on 4x5.

Dan Fromm · Jun 3, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Unless you're using the RF, the infinity stop is just a time saver for focusing on the ground glass. I'm pretty sure the 90mm wasn't considered in the design of that camera -- most were sold with 127 and 135 mm lenses, and a 105 is fairly wide on 4x5.

Donald, if the stops are set correctly pulling the standard to the stops allows the RF to work properly, as you mentioned. They have another benefit, they guarantee that the standard will be parallel to the film plane. Without the stops unintended swing is very possible. Been there, had to deal with that.

As for using short lenses, the Super Graphic is, unlike the earlier Pacemaker Graphics, somewhat hostile to lenses that make infinity with the standard on the inner bed rails. Pacemakers' inner and outer bed rails are linked, the Super's aren't. Short lenses can be used on a Super but focusing isn't that easy. Unlock the standard, pull out, push in.

Donald Qualls · Jun 3, 2020

My Speed is an Anniversary -- unintended swings are impossible (intended ones, too). I wouldn't have imagined they might have built one that could swing due to uneven movement on the rails.

Ian Grant · Jun 3, 2020

Strange, I use a SuperGraphic regularly with 90mm and 203mm or 210mm lenses as well as a 135mm or 150mm and have no issues, The 90mm sits right at the rear of the front standard but any shorter lens is an issue as Dan mentions. I think its familiarity and maybe practice but I can work fast switching to the 90mm, often working hand held and a 90mm in general needs very little front tilt.

I've never had the front of the focus bed in an image but you could mount the camera at 90º and use front swing and shift, just tried it so it does work

Ian

Dan Fromm · Jun 3, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
My Speed is an Anniversary -- unintended swings are impossible (intended ones, too). I wouldn't have imagined they might have built one that could swing due to uneven movement on the rails.

It can happen with Pacemakers. Not big swings, but enough to sometimes put the edges out of focus when the center is in.

jim10219 · Jun 3, 2020

What 90mm lens are we talking about here? Because I think a lot of the newer 90's, like my Fujinon 90/5.6, have a longer flange focal distance than focal length, so I don't have to worry about dropping the bed to use it. At infinity, it actually sets the lens board about 103 mm out from the ground glass even though it's a 90mm lens. I seem to remember that I did have to drop the bed with my old 90/6.8 Raptar, which had a shorter flange focal distance. But I sold that one so long ago, and rarely used it, so I can't really remember for sure. Then again, I have an Anniversary, not a Super, so it might be different there as well.

Ian Grant · Jun 3, 2020

jim10219 said:
What 90mm lens are we talking about here? Because I think a lot of the newer 90's, like my Fujinon 90/5.6, have a longer flange focal distance than focal length, so I don't have to worry about dropping the bed to use it. At infinity, it actually sets the lens board about 103 mm out from the ground glass even though it's a 90mm lens. I seem to remember that I did have to drop the bed with my old 90/6.8 Raptar, which had a shorter flange focal distance. But I sold that one so long ago, and rarely used it, so I can't really remember for sure. Then again, I have an Anniversary, not a Super, so it might be different there as well.

I use a 90mm Raptar or Angulon and that works fine, as does my 90mm Grandagon N.

Ian

thuggins · Jun 3, 2020

I just checked my Super. 90mm is right at the short side limit with the standard set to the back of focusing rail. So this would appear to be the shortest "practical" lens. The standard sits pretty much at 200mm on the front edge with the focusing rail racked in. So the problem you are seeing there would occur with any lens from 200mm on up.

Perhaps you can rack out the focus rail a known amount. e.g. Three turns of the focusing knob or when the front of the bed aligns with the base of the standard. This may not work for the rangefinder (assuming you have the correct cam for 210mm), but it would give infinity and getting to hyperfocal points from there is pretty easy.

BTW, rotating the back changes from horizontal orientation to vertical orientation. Portraits and landscapes are subject matter for photographs, not orientations of the frame. You can create wonderful landscapes with vertical orientation and creative portraits with horizontal orientation.

Sirius Glass · Jun 3, 2020

The 90mm lens barely moves away from the back. Not much one can do with that. I have the same problem.

Each longer lens needs its own infinity stops. Buy a pair of stops, use the information at www.graflex.org and set the stops for the 210 lens. I did and it makes much easier.

richyd · Jun 3, 2020

Thanks for the replies. The 90m is an Angulon. I tried rotating the camera too, in fact I have to because so many tripod heads foul the rotating back which is another issue, but the lens position made it tricky to get my fingers around to adjust for tilt and rise (using swing and shift in that orientation)

I currently have a Schneider Xenar 210 but have used a Rodenstock and Ektar 203. In all cases the standard comes to a few millmetres of the rail end and I did think of putting the infinity stop behind, but there is not enough length left to secure it as it would extend beyond the rail so would not be able to use the front screw nor close the camera.

I use the ground glass with these lenses as I don't have cams for those focal lengths but have attempted to make them. Sometimes it can be useful. I did once use the 90mm hand held focusing on the screen then composing on the wire frame but forgot to pull the slide!. It seems the Super may be more limiting in this area than the other Graphics so I am thinking now of getting an Intrepid 4x5 to be able to handle these focal lengths.

Richard

Dan Fromm · Jun 3, 2020

richyd said:
I currently have a Schneider Xenar 210 but have used a Rodenstock and Ektar 203. In all cases the standard comes to a few millmetres of the rail end and I did think of putting the infinity stop behind, but there is not enough length left to secure it as it would extend beyond the rail so would not be able to use the front screw nor close the camera.

You can give up a little close focusing and mount the stops a bit short of the infinity position.

richyd · Jun 3, 2020

Dan Fromm said:
You can give up a little close focusing and mount the stops a bit short of the infinity position.

I hadn't thought of that, thanks, although I tend to use that lens more for close ups. I'll give it a try.

ic-racer · Jun 3, 2020

Changing the effective flange-focal distance with an extended or recessed lensboard will let you set your infinity stops in a better position. Horseman does this with the lenses in their technical camera system. In fact they have adjusted the flange focal length of some of their lenses with different focal lengths so they can share the same infinity stops!

Of course that is no big deal to a 35mm user, where, for example over 1000 Nikkor lenses of different focal length share the same flange-focal distance.

Dan Fromm · Jun 3, 2020

IC, there are no recessed boards for Graphics. According to the Dau brothers, who own skgrimes, making them is impossible.

What the OP needs for his long lenses is a top hat board. I think I can see how to improvise one.

FWIW, I use and like Graphics. They're not silk purses, neither are they sows' ears. One has to live with their limitations. My soution to shooting long lenses -- the longest that fits is around 480 mm, and I've used it -- with my little 2x3 Graphics was to make a tandem Graphic. Two completely unmodified 2x3 Graphics on a length of 1.5" x 1.5" t-slotted extrusion with a coupler between them to keep the dark in.

Ian Grant · Jun 3, 2020

Dan Fromm said:
You can give up a little close focusing and mount the stops a bit short of the infinity position.

I don;t use Infinity stops but that's exactly what I do, it's intutive (after a while).

Ian

hsandler · Jun 4, 2020

I have a Crown and a 90mm WA Optar. To focus at infinity it needs to sit on the rear rails and I need to drop the bed to avoid it getting in the frame. So I reversed the front standard so that I can get a bit of forward tilt. I'm not sure if you can do that with the Super Graphic.

Ian Grant · Jun 5, 2020

hsandler said:
I have a Crown and a 90mm WA Optar. To focus at infinity it needs to sit on the rear rails and I need to drop the bed to avoid it getting in the frame. So I reversed the front standard so that I can get a bit of forward tilt. I'm not sure if you can do that with the Super Graphic.

The Super Graphic has a fixed rear track inside the body, however it has more movements on the front standard as there's forward and rear tils, swing and shift. This makes the Super Graphic quite versatile, howver a Crown or Speed Graphic is better with shorter lenses, I've used my 65mm Super Angulon with my Crown Graphic, but it may not work with the Speed Graphic, a 75mm should though.

Ian

Dan Fromm · Jun 5, 2020

Some 4x5 Graphics' minimum extensions, in mm:

Anniversary 65.1
Pacemaker Speed 66.7
Pacemaker Crown 52.4

richyd · Jun 5, 2020

I made as mistake in my original post as I was doing it from memory and got mixed up. Had time for a look today and indeed I can get the stops fitted for 210mm lens behind the standard but for the 90mm lens in fact the rangefinder bracket that acts as stop for the steel ribbon is located exactly where you need to put the stop.

Dan Fromm · Jun 5, 2020

richyd said:
I made as mistake in my original post as I was doing it from memory and got mixed up. Had time for a look today and indeed I can get the stops fitted for 210mm lens behind the standard but for the 90mm lens in fact the rangefinder bracket that acts as stop for the steel ribbon is located exactly where you need to put the stop.

The standard solution is to put the stops a moderate distance in front of the "right" place and make a spacer that fits between the stops and the standard. If you don't understand this, please see http://www.galerie-photo.com/telechargement/dan-fromm-6x9-lenses-v2-2011-03-29.pdf figures 27-30.

Speed Graphic - using wide and long lenses

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