Speed graphic for barrel lenses?

MattCarey · May 20, 2005

Hello,

this one must be beaten to death somewhere, but I would appreciate some opnions.

I have a barrel lens on the way to me, and I am looking at some others. I want to be able to do some portrature, with flash. I figure I can kludge a shutter, including sync, but this might be more effort than it's worth.

I can get a packard shutter, or I can have Grimes put the lens in a shutter. However, by the time I put the lens in a shutter, I could have a speed graphic. My mini-speed focal plane shutter makes an awful racket, making me wonder about camera shake.

Any opinions?

Thanks,

Matt

Paul Howell · May 20, 2005

You have 2 issues with the focal plane shutter, the 1st as you mentioned is that Speed's focal plane in the best of shape is going to cause some shutter. The 2nd is calibrating it so have accurate times. I have not had my Speed Serviced in 25 years so I don't know who even can calibrate one.

Paul

Nick Zentena · May 20, 2005

Using flash how much will shutter speed accuracy matter? Unless he's using really long times the flash should overcome ambient. No?

I think the bigger issue is the shortish bellows. I don't remember how long the bellows are on the speed.

It wouldn't suprise me if for the price of a nice speed you could buy a long bellows Calumet or other monorail and a new packard shutter with flash sync. Unless you're outdoors and need high speed shutter speeds the packard might do all you need.

PCGraflex · May 20, 2005

MattCarey said:
Hello,

this one must be beaten to death somewhere, but I would appreciate some opnions.

I have a barrel lens on the way to me, and I am looking at some others. I want to be able to do some portrature, with flash. I figure I can kludge a shutter, including sync, but this might be more effort than it's worth.

I can get a packard shutter, or I can have Grimes put the lens in a shutter. However, by the time I put the lens in a shutter, I could have a speed graphic. My mini-speed focal plane shutter makes an awful racket, making me wonder about camera shake.

Any opinions?

Thanks,

Matt

Matt,

How long is the focal lenght of the lens? I would just use a rear shutter speed that is higher than the focal lenght of your lens while shooting ambient. Also, with flash , you probably will get away with any vibration as the flash will provide the shutter speed. (open flash should be ok as well, since your on the pod come to think of it.)

Fred Lustig of Reno, Nevada could recalibrate your focal plane shutter. I haven't delt with him in a few years and he isn't on the web. Suggest you surf www.graflex.org for more options. There are others that can do this for you as well as Fred.

Paul Howell · May 20, 2005

My thoughts that he will need to use flash bulbs as he using the flash sync on the focal plane shutter, I don't recall what shutter speed the focal plan shutter needs to set for to sync with the flash blubs 1/25? The leaf shutter will sync with a flash, either bulbs or electronic at any speed (at higher speeds a lower guide number) but flash bulbs have a longer duration than electronic flash so shutter shake may be a problem. To use an electronic flash he will need a shutter on the lens with an electronic sync in which case he doesn't need to worry about any of this. .

removed account4 · May 20, 2005

MattCarey said:
Hello,

this one must be beaten to death somewhere, but I would appreciate some opnions.

I have a barrel lens on the way to me, and I am looking at some others. I want to be able to do some portrature, with flash. I figure I can kludge a shutter, including sync, but this might be more effort than it's worth.

I can get a packard shutter, or I can have Grimes put the lens in a shutter. However, by the time I put the lens in a shutter, I could have a speed graphic. My mini-speed focal plane shutter makes an awful racket, making me wonder about camera shake.

Any opinions?

Thanks,

Matt

hi matt

if you are going to be using your focal plane shutter with a flash, it will have to be with bulb flash when you use the focal plane shutter ... but there is another way, which i have used without too many problems - it is sort of like painting with light. you leave the shutter on bulb, stop the lens down and use a strobe to burst light where you want it, then shut the shutter. the focal plane shutter is really a great tool when you have avail. light and you aren't using an electronic flash at all. they aren't hard to calibrate yourself too, if you have a little patience. fred lustig might charge something like 80 +$ for a fp shutter re-calibration - at least that is how much he charges for a rb series d (maybe because the speed shutter isn't as complex it might be less ? i dunno ... ) i always use mine down to 1/30th S without shake problems, but i tend to lean up against stuff - tree, phone pole .. &C.

it might be less of a pain to buy a packard shutter with a sync from hubphoto, and that way you have a dead-on accurate shutter that you can use a modern xenon ( x sync ) strobe with, and not have a huge hassle.

-john

Phillip P. Dimor · May 20, 2005

I only get shake with my 15" wolly tele-optar fully extended and on the slower speeds. I've used graphite on the roller bearings and governer. The speeds are fine on mine.

I use a Kodak 10" Ektanon, great lens. Also have an aero ektar, jml process lens, etc.
I love it!

Jennifer · May 20, 2005

Hi,
Another thought. Even tho they are built very well, the shutter curtain is getting old, and nothing lasts forever. If you were to send the camera to have the curtain replaced, your looking at $400.00. One of the reasons I have crown graphics. If anyone is interested I called Turner Bellows company
and a replacement bellows for a 4x5 Graphic costs $175.00.

Jennifer

Happiness is holding A Graphic

PCGraflex · May 20, 2005

Jennifer said:
Hi,
Another thought. Even tho they are built very well, the shutter curtain is getting old, and nothing lasts forever. If you were to send the camera to have the curtain replaced, your looking at $400.00. One of the reasons I have crown graphics. If anyone is interested I called Turner Bellows company
and a replacement bellows for a 4x5 Graphic costs $175.00.

Jennifer

Happiness is holding A Graphic

Jennifer,

Can I ask who quoted you the $400? That sounds a bit high.

MikeS · May 21, 2005

Paul Howell said:
My thoughts that he will need to use flash bulbs as he using the flash sync on the focal plane shutter, I don't recall what shutter speed the focal plan shutter needs to set for to sync with the flash blubs 1/25? The leaf shutter will sync with a flash, either bulbs or electronic at any speed (at higher speeds a lower guide number) but flash bulbs have a longer duration than electronic flash so shutter shake may be a problem. To use an electronic flash he will need a shutter on the lens with an electronic sync in which case he doesn't need to worry about any of this. .

The shutter on a Speed Graphic will sync at 1/1000th. The really important thing is to use the proper flashbulbs. The #31FP bulbs are the recommended bulb for a 4x5, or the #6FP will work for a baby Speed.

With the Graflex RB Super D you could either use #31's at 1/1000th or it had a special 'auto open flash' mode which could be used with any normal delay flashbulbs, or electronic flash. Basically what it does is you start with the shutter open (the mirror is light tight), and when you trip the shutter release, it sets off the flash as soon as the mirror is fully closed, then closes the shutter. This gives a shutter speed of around 1/5th so it wouldn't work well in situations with lots of ambient light.

I used #31 bulbs on my Super D and they work great. Of course, all flashbulbs are getting harder to find, and the focal plane ones (the #6 & #31's) are probably even harder to find. You might want to give John at J&C a call, he might have them.

-Mike

Frank Petronio · May 21, 2005

The other consideration is getting the heavy old lens onto the tiny Graphic lensboard. Sometimes it requires some unauthorized cutting and perhaps a bracket to support the heavy lens.It can be done but it is hard/expensive in some situations.

A Sinar Norma with the Norma shutter is the proper way to do things....

jd callow · May 21, 2005

Frank Petronio said:
The other consideration is getting the heavy old lens onto the tiny Graphic lensboard. Sometimes it requires some unauthorized cutting and perhaps a bracket to support the heavy lens.It can be done but it is hard/expensive in some situations.

A Sinar Norma with the Norma shutter is the proper way to do things....

I had SK Grimes put a barrel shutter on a speed lb. It is heavy and was expensive. The camera seems able to manage the weight and length (240mm) without issue.

The norma shutters are nice and should work on newer sinars. Norma's in general are really well crafted cameras. If I had it to do over again I would have bought a norma over the F. If money wasn't an issue I would have done the P or atleast the X, but....

Frank Petronio · May 21, 2005

I am having Grimes do an Aero Ektar - Speed marriage for me too. I am not intending to use flash with the camera though. The whole idea is to take advantage of the Aero's speed, and with ASA 400 film I should be able to get f/5.6-8 from constant light for portraits (I doubt that I will shoot at f/2.5).

I have had a Norma and other than it's bulk compared to a field camera, it is probably the nicest monorail ever made. I have also had older and newer Arca-Swiss cameras, which were designed by the same fellow who designed the Norma (the Norma is earlier). The Arcas are well made and lighter, but the Norma is more solid. And since used Sinar gear is relatively plentiful and not as expensive as Arca stuff, get a Norma and don't look back. The only thing that needs servicing is the geared focusing mounts, which are user servicable if the idiot who owned the camera before you didn't clamp the knobs too tight with pliers (avoid cameras from "photo schools.")

Dan Fromm · May 21, 2005

MattCarey said:
Hello,

this one must be beaten to death somewhere, but I would appreciate some opnions.

I have a barrel lens on the way to me, and I am looking at some others. I want to be able to do some portrature, with flash. I figure I can kludge a shutter, including sync, but this might be more effort than it's worth.

I can get a packard shutter, or I can have Grimes put the lens in a shutter. However, by the time I put the lens in a shutter, I could have a speed graphic. My mini-speed focal plane shutter makes an awful racket, making me wonder about camera shake.

Any opinions?

Thanks,

Matt

Matt, FWIW I shoot a couple of lenses in barrel, handheld and on tripod, on my 2x3 Pacemaker Speed. 4"/2 and 12"/4 tele. The shutter makes a lot of noise, but vibration is not a bad problem.

Depending on the lens -- tell us more, please -- it may make sense to have it mounted in front of a shutter. This can be much less expensive than having the lens put IN shutter. The downside is that if the lens is short and the format large the shutter will vignette the image. But if the lens is relatively long, vignetting should not be a problem on 4x5 if you shoot straight ahead. FWIW, I have a pile of lenses in barrel that I hang in front of a #1 on my 2x3 Speed. The longest, after SKGrimes has made the bracketry and adapter I commissioned this morning, will be 480 mm.

If the replies you've received already haven't been explicit enough, I'll do it. Electronic flash can not be made to sync with a Speed Graphic focal plane shutter. With a Speed's FPS, its bulb flash or no flash.

Cheers,

Dan

Phillip P. Dimor · May 21, 2005

I shoot my aero-ektar at f2.5 a bit, DOF is super shallow. I like the look for portraits..
At f16, it's pretty sharp IMHO. Heavy lens, I had to grind a bit for the rear element to fit inside the camera.. I used heavy-duty zip-ties to fasten the lens onto a thick plastic board (ugly but workable).. Making your own boards is a snap with stiff plastic.
I take a power grinder (dremel on steroids) and grind like..

/-------------\ (side profile)

a bevel on each side, so the sliding lens board locks hold the board in. It's dirty but it works for all of my barrel lenses.

Sorry if this is OT, I can provide a good clear pic/example if needed.

MattCarey · May 22, 2005

Hello All--

thanks for all the responses. I have to admit ignorance--I didn't know about hubphoto or the Norma.

The Norma's look really sweet. However, they are about 10x the price of my current monorail (and my brother paid that--it was a birthday gift to me). I know it would be a big step forward, but I tend to take the philosophy that if I don't spend the price of the camera/lens/etc in film in a reasonable time, I probably am not using it enough to justify. It is a pretty arbitrary criterion, but it keeps me (I hope) in the user category instead of the collector category.

I have a bunch of bulbs and a heiland flash, but no FP bulbs. I'll check graflex.org some for their use.

For what it's worth, I have a 9" Verito on the way, and I would like to get something like that in a Heliar. Who knows what else may come my way.

There's lots of great advice here--thanks again!

Matt

MattCarey · May 22, 2005

Hello all,

I thought I would experiment with what I have. I checked my mini-speed focal plane shutter with an electronic flash--very intermittent. Occasionally works on slow speeds. I'll search through graflex.org for some insight.

Matt

Dan Fromm · May 22, 2005

MattCarey said:
Hello all,

I thought I would experiment with what I have. I checked my mini-speed focal plane shutter with an electronic flash--very intermittent. Occasionally works on slow speeds. I'll search through graflex.org for some insight.

Matt

Matt, in the Mini Speed, the focal plane shutter triggers a flash with a little metal tab attached to the shutter curtain. The tab bridges the two pins of the flash terminal at the upper left corner of the body (seen from behind). The shutter curtain itself has six fixed-width slits that traverse the gate at various speeds (controlled by the tension adjustment) to make the exposure. Only the widest slit, intended to be in the "open" position when the front shutter is to be used, is as high as the gate.

The slits travel from top to bottom, the tab for firing flash for a slit is below it.

It is therefore impossible to expose all of a frame with flash when using your camera's focal plane shutter. Part of a frame, maybe, all of it, no. Except perhaps in one special circumstance, namely, when taking a time exposure. But then you might just as well use open flash. Sorry I can't check this last point, I sold my Mini years ago.

MikeS · May 23, 2005

Dan Fromm said:
The slits travel from top to bottom, the tab for firing flash for a slit is below it.

It is therefore impossible to expose all of a frame with flash when using your camera's focal plane shutter. Part of a frame, maybe, all of it, no. Except perhaps in one special circumstance, namely, when taking a time exposure. But then you might just as well use open flash. Sorry I can't check this last point, I sold my Mini years ago.

Dan:

It's absolutely possible to expose all of a frame with flash using a focal plane shutter! You can't do it with electronic flash, or even regular flashbulbs, but using the proper FP bulb for the format (#31FP for 4x5) it's absolutely possible.

-Mike

Dan Fromm · May 23, 2005

MikeS said:
Dan:

It's absolutely possible to expose all of a frame with flash using a focal plane shutter! You can't do it with electronic flash, or even regular flashbulbs, but using the proper FP bulb for the format (#31FP for 4x5) it's absolutely possible.

-Mike

Mike, you're absolutely right. I should have limited that to "electronic flash".

Cheers,

Dan

Speed graphic for barrel lenses?

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