Speed Graphic 4x5

Hi all,

I'm new in the Large Format forum, but sometimes post elsewhere on Apug, usually in Medium Format and sometimes in Panoramic.

I enjoy using old film cameras, and am fortunate to own several. Seems to be the profile of most folks here, so none of that is news. I enjoy Rollei TLRs, own a Stereo Realist, have cobbled a bracket so I can shoot 3D with a pair of Rolleis, then a Widelux, a Kodak Medalist, and some modern 35mm P&S and SLR cameras. I never collected baseball cards as a kid, and I guess that collecting is now biting me in the behind rather hard. I justify it by trying to use each camera regularly. I meter my own light, and process my own 120 and 35 b/w negs. Am comfortable with this, been playing with these old manual units since 2004, and started on 35mm back in 1982 or so.

I'm thinking of a 4x5 Speed Graphic. I'm confident that with reading and practice and careful shopping, I can find something functional and affordable. I've never had a camera with tilt and shift before, and can visualize how that would work (day job is mechanical designer, creating things in 3D on a computer screen, so concepts of tilt / foreshortening are basic to me).

The only concern(s) I have are:

1. Is there some era I should absolutely avoid?
2. What is the price of film, and availablility?
3. How much chemistry is involved in souping a 4x5 neg? I know that I use about 250cc for a roll of 35mm and 500cc for 120 film.... is a 4x5 neg far thirstier?

That's about it. No hurry. Not going to move on my desires for a bit, I tend to plod along - which is probably fine for these older cameras.

Thanks!

The Speed Graphics in general are very good cameras, so I wouldn't avoid a specific era. That being said, the Pre-Anniversary models are mostly over 70, and the Anni's are over 60, so be sure the bellows are intact. The models before the Pre-Anni's use a small lensboard, which limits your flexibility there. I use a 1944 Anni, but had to replace the bellows.

Film is not terribly expensive, given that you won't be using as much of it. As for the amount of chemistry used, that depends on your development method, and can range from quite small for tray and tube development to over a liter for some tanks.

Even though I own two, perhaps three, if I include the Graphic View, I won't claim any particular expertise. http://graflex.org/ is a good place to start. It has lots of information about the various incarnations and models of all the Graflex cameras, including the Speeds, of course.
Probably the most common are the "Pacemaker" models, which are not the most recent, but, from what I've seen are the most refined in terms of the controls for the rear shutter. Film is still available from photo stores that have a professional clientele. Otherwise Freestyle, J and C, etc are good sources, both of which are sponsors. For processing, there are lots of discussions in here on various methods. The amount of chemistry required varies wildly with your chosen method. I use a Jobo tank and reel, but in inversion mode, which uses a staggering amount of chemistry. BTZ tubes look promising but I've never tried them.
One of the nice things about working with 4x5 is that it does slow you down some, though it doesn't have to slow you down much, especially with a Speed or Crown Graphic (or other similar cameras), which were built with the needs of press photographers in mind, after all.
Enjoy the journey!

Barry

Agree with previous posts. As said before, check
http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/graphic-models.html
for the full story, but basically the models you are likely to consider are the Anniversary Speed Graphic (1940 - 1946) (always with a focal-plane shutter, spring back, not so easy to find lens boards), or the Pacemaker (1947 - 1970), which comes with a focal plane shutter as a Pacemaker Speed Graphic or without as a Pacemaker Crown Graphic. Side rangefinder until 1955, top rangefinder after this, always with a Graflok back, lens boards very easy to find both used and new. There was also the last model the Super Graphic/Super Speed Graphic, without/with a special leaf shutter, no f/p shutter. This had some bells and whistles, the most useful today being front swing, but is by far the most expensive option.

In short, then, the one to avoid is the Anniversary, unless you are certain you don't want to use rollfilm backs, side rangefinder Pacemaker is good and not too expensive, top rangefinder Pacemaker is also good but more expensive (does allow interchange of rangefinder cams if you're interested), Super is the collector's choice, the most versatile, not very common, expensive.

Prices for Graphics seem to have gone up the last couple of years - about 3 years ago I bought a very clean top-rangefinder Pacemaker Graphic on e-bay for $190, I don't see any at that price now. Prices should be at their lowest immediately after Christmas!

Afterthought: The very cheapest way to get a good Graphic is to buy a 3x4 (I got a mint one for $65), but the roll-film backs and lens boards are hard to find - it took me about a year to get a back and 3 years to get 4 boards!

Regards,

David

I purchased a functioning Crown Graphic from a forum member for my son, with 2 lenses & shutters, Graflok back, 2 roll film backs... all for about $200 last year. But when I decided earlier this year to try 4x5 myself, I purchased several "parts only" listings from eBay and assembled a working Crown Graphic. I am certain that my total investment, including the 135mm Graphex lens & shutter was less than $125 and it provided lots of hours of enjoyment assembling the pieces and parts. I have also become adept at making wooden lens boards that fit the front standard where the folded aluminum lens boards are normally used. We both have learned using Freestyle ASA 100 film and we are on our second box of 100... it seems to average about 50 cents/negative. All things considered, not as expensive to get operational as I thought it would be.

DougGrosjean said:

Hi all,

I'm new in the Large Format forum, but sometimes post elsewhere on Apug, usually in Medium Format and sometimes in Panoramic.


The only concern(s) I have are:

1. Is there some era I should absolutely avoid?
2. What is the price of film, and availablility?
3. How much chemistry is involved in souping a 4x5 neg? I know that I use about 250cc for a roll of 35mm and 500cc for 120 film.... is a 4x5 neg far thirstier?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Hi DOug,

Right to your points of interest...
1) you mean an era of Speed graphic? I guess I'd avoid the really old ones. Personally, I'd definitely, want a relatively newer one (like from the late 1950's on)...but,that's just me. Lot's of folks seem to think that they *must* have the one with the Grafloc back but, after a while, you kinda realize that,for the most part, that's just a lotta hype. Especially if you're shooting ordinary sheet film, polaroids or, quick loads (in a polaroid holder).

2) Here in the US , availability of 4x5, 5x7 and even 8x10 sheet film is pretty good. Prices are quite reasonable too. Especially when you consider that you shoot much, much less film in an hour than say, 35mm or even 120. In order to get an idea of real pricing and availability, shop around a bit. It's easy on line...check out:
http://www.badgergraphic.com
http://www.jandcphoto.com
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/

That's just for starters, you local pro shop might also carry sheet film - especially in 4x5.

3) How much chemistry...well, that depends. I do one sheet at a time in the Paterson Universal tank (that's right, the very same tank in which I can process two rolls of 35mm). That uses about 800ml of chemistry. When there are more than two sheets to process, or, I'm feeling lazy (most of the time) I'll load them up in a jobo drum (look for Jobo part number 4341) and use only 300-400 ml of chemistry and process upto 6 sheets at a time...

If you're really concerned about the cost of chemistry...get to like HC-110 or it's friends from Ilford (Ilfotec HC and Ilfotec LC29) these are dirt cheap in actual use.

Personally, I'd really like to move to a deep tank system...that requires some careful shoping and lots of up front investment but, I believe in the long run, the costs of running a replenished deep tank system are probably about as good as it gets. Especially considering the results are likely superior to all other methods.

Hope that helps.

Oh, you did not ask for this piece of advice, I offer it for free...so take it for whatever it is worth. Don't bother with a Crown/Speed Graphic. If Large format is right for you, you'll outgrow a crown/speed in six months. Go right for a real camera. A nice used monorail can be had for about what you'd spend for a decent, usable (or beater) crown/.speed...In fact, Jim Galli has a beautiful Cambo monorail offered at a disgustingly low price right now...check the APUG classifieds and give Jim a call.

BradS said:

.

Oh, you did not ask for this piece of advice, I offer it for free...so take it for whatever it is worth. Don't bother with a Crown/Speed Graphic. If Large format is right for you, you'll outgrow a crown/speed in six months. Go right for a real camera. A nice used monorail can be had for about what you'd spend for a decent, usable (or beater) crown/.speed...In fact, Jim Galli has a beautiful Cambo monorail offered at a disgustingly low price right now...check the APUG classifieds and give Jim a call.

Click to expand...

There speaks a man who is much younger than me! I have Sinar monorail cameras and also a very nice 13x18 cm Linhof Technica. I also have some very good rucksack-style camera bags which are as easy as possible to carry! HOWEVER, the only LF camera I go out with is my Pacemaker Crown Graphic. purely because of bulk and weight. As far as I am concerned, if I have some tilt movement (tilt front only on a Graphic), I am fully equipped to deal with any landscape.

On the other hand, it is far easier than you might imagine to buy a camera which offers a theoretically superior specification, find that you hate carrying the weight and within a short time also find that your enthusiasm for LF landscape work has completely disappeared and that the "superior" camera never leaves home!

Regards,

David

Mine is a pre-Anny. Without lens or lensboard it cost all of $56 on ebay - and I already had a stack of lens boards (and lenses). The bellows turned out to have been replaced recently; a nice synthetic bellows I believe must be from CameraBellows. The focal plane shutter works perfectly.
I've mounted a small universal iris lens mount on one board, so I can use any barrel lens on it.
Movements? If I need movements, I'll use a different camera. To me the Speed Graphic is a giant point-and-shoot.

Unless you really want a focal plan shutter you want to look into a Crown, lighter and little thiner which makes using a very wide angle a little easer as the lens board does not need to be as deeply recessed as a Speed. Top Rangfinder models can be fitted with differnt cams to match with differnt lens. I think there a few web sites with information on how make a cam. You also may want to look for a Graflock back in case you want to shoot roll film. Some Crowns also have a shutter release built into the camera body which comes in handy with shooting on the fly.

I agree with Oli, dont think of press camera a view camera, it was never designed to be a view camera although I admitt to using mine as feild camera because it folds up and stores away in a very compact packet.

I have a Speed that I bought in 1966 at a Navy Salvage sale, it has been though pure hell and still works. I have a post war Crown that I bought sometime in the 1970s and although not as abused as my Speed it just a great camera that is easy to use that still produces a superb 4X5 negative.

In addition to the Speed and Crown you may to to also look into a Pressman or Besseler which also marketed a press camera, I have only see one, almost bought it, built in cams, but really heavy.

I love both my Speed and Crown. I agree that it's best thought of as a big point and shoot, rather than a view camera. However, the rising front comes in very handy to avoid that building-falling-over look that other point and shoots get.
juan

For processing, one option is the HP Combo tank which takes 6 sheets at at time (some claim to be able to do 12 by loading them back to back, but I haven't tried it – nor will I) and uses 1 litre of dev. Reasonably economical.

No knowledge of Graphics though, I use an MPP technical camera. Much better!



Richard

The Speed Graphic Anniversary model has the advantage of using easily fabricated lens boards. It has the disadvantage of no front tilts and of not using the fold-down infinity stops of later models. I replaced the focusing rack and the standard on my Anniversary model with later ones to gain the option of fold-down infinity stops and tilts. Later front standards can be modified to provide swings and better tilts. Except for requiring a lens board more difficult to improvise, the later Pacemaker series are more versatile. Some Bush press cameras are also versatile, although they do have their pecularities. I have both monorail and flatbed LF cameras, but the press camera is still an obvious choice for some photography. Graflex.org is a source of information rarely available elsewhere. The novice Speed Graphic user will find Graphic Graflex Photography by Willard Morgan and Henry Lester a treasure trove of information. Early editions cover the Anniversary model. The 8th edition of 1947 covers the early Pacemaker and older models. They are available through ebay and on-line booksellers. Prices vary widely, careful shopping saves money.

BradS said:

(snip) Oh, you did not ask for this piece of advice, I offer it for free...so take it for whatever it is worth. Don't bother with a Crown/Speed Graphic. If Large format is right for you, you'll outgrow a crown/speed in six months. Go right for a real camera. A nice used monorail can be had for about what you'd spend for a decent, usable (or beater) crown/.speed...In fact, Jim Galli has a beautiful Cambo monorail offered at a disgustingly low price right now...check the APUG classifieds and give Jim a call.

Click to expand...

I have two Graphics (Super and Anniversary) and a Cambo and have been using them since the 1980's, so I feel qualified to comment on Brads comment.

I totally agree that the Cambo is a better option overall for learning LF since it is affordable, expandable, and more flexible. Parts are available ALL OF THE TIME at the auction site... or at Calumet if you want to pay full price for new. This is a major advantage!!

I don't fully agree with the idea of outgrowing a Graphic... it depends on what you want to do. They'll disappoint you for achitecture due to lack of adequate movements, but they are much more hand-holdable than a monorail and offer an interesting opportunity for LF "press-type" shooting and environmental portraiture. I use one of the Graphics or another as my "grab-and-go" camera when scouting locations or for hiking where slightly lighter weight is appreciated.

After LF shooting for many years, I have not "outgrown" either of these cameras (yet) but use them for what they are best suited to do.

juan said:

I love both my Speed and Crown. I agree that it's best thought of as a big point and shoot, rather than a view camera. However, the rising front comes in very handy to avoid that building-falling-over look that other point and shoots get.
juan

Click to expand...

Thanks to all - wow! Great info. I hope I've given back to the site enough to justify all you're sharing with me now.

Juan, that sounds exactly like what I'm looking for.

Somebody else posted about a Pressman Model D, so I Googled around a bit, and am open to one of them, too.

Still no hurry. Research is the first step.

And a Polaroid back might even get my digital 12 y/o son to admit that these big old cameras are kinda neat.

David H. Bebbington said:

There speaks a man who is much younger than me! I have Sinar monorail cameras and also a very nice 13x18 cm Linhof Technica. I also have some very good rucksack-style camera bags which are as easy as possible to carry! HOWEVER, the only LF camera I go out with is my Pacemaker Crown Graphic. purely because of bulk and weight. As far as I am concerned, if I have some tilt movement (tilt front only on a Graphic), I am fully equipped to deal with any landscape.

On the other hand, it is far easier than you might imagine to buy a camera which offers a theoretically superior specification, find that you hate carrying the weight and within a short time also find that your enthusiasm for LF landscape work has completely disappeared and that the "superior" camera never leaves home!

Regards,

David

Click to expand...

BrianShaw said:

I have two Graphics (Super and Anniversary) and a Cambo and have been using them since the 1980's, so I feel qualified to comment on Brads comment.

I totally agree that the Cambo is a better option overall for learning LF since it is affordable, expandable, and more flexible. Parts are available ALL OF THE TIME at the auction site... or at Calumet if you want to pay full price for new. This is a major advantage!!

I don't fully agree with the idea of outgrowing a Graphic... it depends on what you want to do. They'll disappoint you for achitecture due to lack of adequate movements, but they are much more hand-holdable than a monorail and offer an interesting opportunity for LF "press-type" shooting and environmental portraiture. I use one of the Graphics or another as my "grab-and-go" camera when scouting locations or for hiking where slightly lighter weight is appreciated.

After LF shooting for many years, I have not "outgrown" either of these cameras (yet) but use them for what they are best suited to do.

Click to expand...

David and Brian make some excellent points. I agree the crown (especially the crown) is a wonderful tool for carrying about and shooting hand held. My first LF camera was a crown. I almost literally carried it with me just about everywhere for the first 9 months I owned it. Made a bunch of beatiful (to me anyway) images with nothing more than the box-stock, fifty year old 135mm Xenar. I made all of the dumb mistakes too - over and over and over again. I shudder at the number of sheets of film I wasted that first year because I pulled the darkslide before closing the shutter (for example).

The turning point for me came when I bought a copy of Jack Dykinga's book. I wanted to make the "big landscape" shots just like Jack. It can be done with a crown. It's just a major hassle. I wanted a camera that wasn't such a pain to tilt the front down on (nice grammar, huh?). I was introduced to the work of Stephen Shore. I wanted to immatate it. Not so easy with the Crown.
But my true photgraphic passion is potraiture. As I began to do more and more LF portraiture, I also wanted to orient the back in the vertical instead of the horizontal. Again, it can be done with a crown...it's just painful by comparison.

My next camera was a toyo monorail...it had full movements, was fairly light weight but it was big and bulky. I did hump it into the field - ONCE...and then sold it and got a wood field...and finally, a Sinar F2...Today, if I had to choose just one, I'd be hard pressed to choose between the Sinar and the wood field.

I guess in retrospect, I still wish I had gone straight for a wood field camera. But, I am mainly interested in portraiture and, to a lesser extent, the urban landscape. I like the crown but, it's sub-optimal for these two areas. It is a fun and easy camera to hand carry but, it really is a big folder more than anything in my opinion.

If you need the movements and a roatating back (The last models did have a roatating back) and dont see yourself hand holding a 4X5 then by all means get a true field or view camera because you will be disapointed with a press camera. A press camera is a press camera, not a view camera. I plan to shoot a rodeo with my Crown, I have a batch of flash bulbs that I want to use up and put to good use.

A dumb question here, but if two cameras both shoto 4x5 film, through similar lenses, and both have some ability to tilt, why is one a view and the other a press camera?

I don't care so much what the camera is called, as I care about what it can do with a piece of film.

Hmmm, not really a dumb question at all. A press camera may or may not have movements. If it does, the movements are, generally speaking, pretty limited. A monorail view camera, by comparison, will typically have full movements - both front and back.

Press cameras are intended to be used hand-held and only rarely upon a tripod. Monorails and field cameras are almost always used on a tripod.


Press cameras are mostly used with all movements zeroed.

BradS said:

Hmmm, not really a dumb question at all. A press camera may or may not have movements. If it does, the movements are, generally speaking, pretty limited. A monorail view camera, by comparison, will typically have full movements - both front and back.

Press cameras are intended to be used hand-held and only rarely upon a tripod. Monorails and field cameras are almost always used on a tripod.


Press cameras are mostly used with all movements zeroed.

Click to expand...

Brad sumed up rather well.

A press camera has limited front movements, my old Speed has front rise and a little tilt, the Crown front rise, some tilt, and swing, no back movements at all, but most press cameras were equiped with some sort of a rangefinder.

A field camera has greater front movements, rise, titlt, and swing, and may have limited back movement. Field cameras are usaly a flat bed design that fold up for easy transport, I dont know of any than come with a rangefinder.

A view camera has full front and back movements, some are rather lightweight but do not fold up as small as a field camera.

A techincal camera is a cross between a press camera and field camera.

Thanks for the explanation re: Press vs. Field.

It confirms I'd be better served with the press cameras. I expect to be mobile with it, to hand-carry it, sometimes hand-shoot it. I want it to be rugged so it can tag along in the back of my Jeep or in a saddlebag of my dirt & street motorcycle(s), which it sounds more like a press camera would suit my needs. I don't expect to radically use the tilts & shifts, as most of my shooting is landscape, and some is portraits, and yet a smaller sliver is nighttime.

I'm learning bunches - thanks again!

Another difference is the type of shutter and how the shutter can be tripped.

Press cameras can have focal plane shutter, leaf shutter or both. Press cameras also generally feature some sort of electric solenoid release and a handle (hand strap) to make hand-holding more feasible.

View/field cameras generally only have leaf shutter and are released using a cable release. There is also generally more bellows draw so longer focal length lenses (or extension for macro work) is feasible.

The decision between the two really boils down to what kind of work you will be doing and how much movement that photography will involve. Once you have a notion of that, you can shop for a camera that will meet your needs. In the end, you'll probably end up getting one of each

Here's how I use my 4x5's:

Anniversary Graphic (5-1/2 inch lens) - Environmental portraiture (generally hand held; landscape orientation only); landscapes - minimal movements, if any (tripod mount); Sports photography - kiddie baseball (generally hand held; landscape orientation)

If I need a revolving back:

SuperGraphic (135mm lens) - Environmental portraiture (generally hand held; either landscape or portrait orientation); landscapes - minimal movements, if any (tripod mount); Sports photography - kiddie baseball (generally hand held; either landscape or portrait orientation)

Cambo (135mm, 210mm, 250mm soft focus; 8-1/2 inch antique) always tripod mounted - Environmental portraiture (either landscape or portrait orientation); landscapes (minimal to moderate movements, if any); architectural (moderate movements)

If memory serves me I recall that the Supergraphic has a metal body and some of lens are very fast for a leaf shutter, either a 1/800 or 1/1000. I also think that Toya bought the tools and jigs for the Supergraphic when Graphic went under and the Super evolved into the Toya 4X5 tech camera. I am unsure of the spelling for Toya. On the high end there is the Horseman and Linhof as well.

Right, Paul... one of the SuperGraphic models was the SuperSpeedGraphic, which featured a 1/1000 sec shutter. These shutters are often broken or impossible to repair. The SuperGraphic generally has Supermatic or Graphex shutter (1/400 sec top speed). These are much more reliable. The only real drawback of this camera is that some original parts are often difficult to find (lens boards, in particular) and when found on eBay the bidding tends to be frantic.

When you write "Toya", I believe you mean "TOYO". Your recollection of the evolution of htis camera is the same as mine.

I bought my restored Crown Graphic from Fred Lustig of Reno, Nevada. He replaced the focusing rails, replaced the bellows, and made a cam for my 210mm lens. All for the price of a nice digicam (or a cheap DSLR body). He does superb work and is wonderful to deal, and talk with.

I use a Crown; and despite what is said about the limited movements, I still manage to run out of coverage if I'm not careful

Yes, it could have a revolving back, and more movements (almost no shift when using a <= 100mm lens etc) and more bellows but otherwise it's a great value for money; extremely portable too; a wooden field is at least 2 to 3 times more expensive, without a lens.

You can still get a crown/speed and everything to get you started for really cheap. You can always upgrade later ! I've had mine as my first/only LF for 4 months now, and I think I can still survive with it for a few more