Spatio-Temporal Kinetic Imaging?

waterpump · Jul 22, 2017

Sticking my neck out on this one! (last time I posed on this subject (about 15 years ago) elsewhere, I received a massive slating.) so here goes....

With the advances in archival techniques, particularly in B&W images, in the analogue domain and digital imaging storage systems, archival stability is no longer a major issue in photography. In the 1990's I explored a number of techniques, some historically well established, some possibly new, to deliberately produce physical images that changed with time, or changed according to viewing angle or angle of illumination, hence the term 'spatio-temporal kinetic'. Some images were deliberately changed or manipulated on stage as a live performance.

Below is an example of a spatial kinetic image published in the BJP, No 6946, 28th October 1993, The Kinetic Tin Process. These are two shots of the same single print viewed from different angles taken from the BJP article. The original print was given away many years ago.

Anyone interested in exploring these concepts?

removed account4 · Jul 22, 2017

interesting concept.
so in essence the print changes depending on how one looks at it
like a daguerreotype changes from negative to positive ... depending on how light strikes it ?
you mention something about archival stability it is, but it isn't but is ? i am a bit confused
this print that you uploaded ... as time marched on, would the "2nd image" evolved into something else
or is it static, and does the print in its end state de-evolve ( evolve? ) into a grey ( or black) print ?
i ask these questions because i make retina prints, as Nicéphore Niépce did by long exposing a
sheet of light sensive paper ( or film or glass ) in a camera sometimes for days. depending on the paper
and the light, the length of time it was exposed and if i soak the paper in developer or something and let it air dry &c i get
a negative or positive image which is stained and trapped in the emulsion and which changes over time
to grey or black or something else, but there is no static record of the original image like the one you posted
( unless the images on the left and right eventually shift to become something else totally different ).

i said "evolve" earlier because sometimes they go UP because the equilibrium is higher, not a lower state
of entropy, so the images may evolve to a higher state .. ( think of attaining nirvana, theosophy or some
eastern beliefs where the soul comes back to learn and evolve into a higher more pure state, like climbing an endless ladder )
i have seen this happen with disused land. to give an example, an island near me for centuries
was a sanctuary of sorts and then after the "western contact" its used changed to a pleasure-space
and later to factories and more industrial usage. the mucky, muddy wetland that was a buffer
between the island and land was filled with earth so trucks, horses &c could easily transport things to and from
the island. over the years storms struck the island, taking out use after use until it was abandonned
with a few derilict structures on it.
and state turned it into a little park by not having anything on it but paths to walk on and benches,
the mucky area seems to be appearing again...
the island evolved into a higher state, a wild space, and if you go there you can feel it is a sanctuary once again.

waterpump · Jul 22, 2017

jnanian said:
interesting concept.
so in essence the print changes depending on how one looks at it
like a daguerreotype changes from negative to positive
depending on how light strikes it ?
you mention something about archival stability it is, but it isn't but is ? i am a bit confused
this print that you uploaded ... as time marched on, would the "2nd image" evolved into something else
or is it static, and does the print in its end state de-evolve into a grey ( or black) print ?

Thanks for your comments. In the above image I was exploring the effect, as you say, like a daguerreotype, but on a standard silver gelatine paper print (Ilford Multigrade III FB). The predominant kinetic effect was 'spatial' - a change of visualisation of the print according to viewing angle, or angle of illumination. The print will gradually transform between viewing angles, its not an 'either /or' state. The change of image through time was not a consideration in this chemistry, but the image was likely to change over a time span of decades due to a number of factors - this was a secondary effect and not the main focus of the experiment. So archival stability through longer periods of time (as opposed to minutes, hours, days) was not a major consideration in this process. As I do not possess the original print above from which the journal images were made, I cannot say how the particular image above has evolved through time. But other examples using similar chemistry do slowly change slightly in colour and density, but do not fade out so far (approx 14years). Incidentally the 'light ethereal' reflective state (right image above) does slightly intensify on storage with some prints. So far none have de-evolved into grey.

I hope this answers your questions. Please do not hesitate to ask if you wish to know any more.

waterpump · Jul 22, 2017

Richard.L said:
Nice Post WP
perhaps you know of this "First Photograph": http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/permanent/firstphotograph/look/#top

---
transience was a very strong part of process art as practiced by printmakers in the 60s-70s -- going to the making of paper/ layers, etc.

best to your efforts...r/_

Thanks. I was unaware of the Heliographic Process. Excellent!

removed account4 · Jul 22, 2017

hi again
thanks for your clarification !
the way you have described the process sounds almost like
an image that has "silvered out" an old polaroid #55 print that has
reflective blacks on it depending on how it is looked at
and /or a toning process that rockland colloid makes called halochrome.
where the image looks like a traditional silver print until you see it from a different angle and then
it has a different quality ...
i haven't seen any halochrome prints in the flesh but i do have images that are silvering out do to a variety of
reasons i dont' fully understand ( atmospheric contamination? being trapped in a frame so the print can't out-gas ? )
and i don't have any that have fully vanished or entered a state of equilibrium.

it would be interesting to see the prints in your post today to see what they have e/de-volved into..

waterpump · Jul 22, 2017

jnanian said:
interesting concept.
so in essence the print changes depending on how one looks at it
like a daguerreotype changes from negative to positive ... depending on how light strikes it ?
you mention something about archival stability it is, but it isn't but is ? i am a bit confused
this print that you uploaded ... as time marched on, would the "2nd image" evolved into something else
or is it static, and does the print in its end state de-evolve ( evolve? ) into a grey ( or black) print ?
i ask these questions because i make retina prints, as Nicéphore Niépce did by long exposing a
sheet of light sensive paper ( or film or glass ) in a camera sometimes for days. depending on the paper
and the light, the length of time it was exposed and if i soak the paper in developer or something and let it air dry &c i get
a negative or positive image which is stained and trapped in the emulsion and which changes over time
to grey or black or something else, but there is no static record of the original image like the one you posted
( unless the images on the left and right eventually shift to become something else totally different ).

i said "evolve" earlier because sometimes they go UP because the equilibrium is higher, not a lower state
of entropy, so the images may evolve to a higher state .. ( think of attaining nirvana, theosophy or some
eastern beliefs where the soul comes back to learn and evolve into a higher more pure state, like climbing an endless ladder )
i have seen this happen with disused land. to give an example, an island near me for centuries
was a sanctuary of sorts and then after the "western contact" its used changed to a pleasure-space
and later to factories and more industrial usage. the mucky, muddy wetland that was a buffer
between the island and land was filled with earth so trucks, horses &c could easily transport things to and from
the island. over the years storms struck the island, taking out use after use until it was abandonned
with a few derilict structures on it.
and state turned it into a little park by not having anything on it but paths to walk on and benches,
the mucky area seems to be appearing again...
the island evolved into a higher state, a wild space, and if you go there you can feel it is a sanctuary once again.

Just read the rest of your post! Inspiring thinking and practice jnanian. I like where you are coming from regarding ephemeral images.

waterpump · Jul 22, 2017

jnanian said:
hi again
thanks for your clarification !
the way you have described the process sounds almost like
an image that has "silvered out" an old polaroid #55 print that has
reflective blacks on it depending on how it is looked at
is doing that ) and /or a toning process that rockland colloid makes called halochrome.
where the image looks like a traditional silver print until you see it from a different angle and then
it has a different quality ...
i haven't seen any halochrome prints in the flesh but i do have images that are silvering out do to a variety of
reasons i dont' fully understand ( atmospheric contamination? being trapped in a frame so the print can't out-gas ? )
and i don't have any that have fully vanished or entered a state of equilibrium.

it would be interesting to see the prints in your post today to see what they have e/de-volved into..

Yes. The Tin Process, which is a complex and carefully controlled bleach / light exposure / redevelopment technique to create a very thin semi-reflective layer on the surface of the print that is correlated to the silver density of the original print. It uses techniques similar to halochrome, but using different chemistry and is a very refined and delicate implementation of the chemistry as such. There are many variables involved.

I've not done this for over 20 years so I don't have any 'fresh' prints to upload.

removed account4 · Jul 22, 2017

sounds like a really fun and interesting process !
i hope you shake the cobwebs free
and crank some out !!

can't wait to see them !

pdeeh · Jul 22, 2017

i likes this thread.

Arctic amateur · Jul 22, 2017

I have observed that if I look at the emulsion side of a negative strip and hold it just right with respect to the light, I see the light reflected off the emulsion instead of the light transmitted through it - and I see a low-contrast positive image rather than a negative. It isn't always easy to do, perhaps the film stock or how well it was processed matters?

waterpump · Jul 22, 2017

Arctic amateur said:
I have observed that if I look at the emulsion side of a negative strip and hold it just right with respect to the light, I see the light reflected off the emulsion instead of the light transmitted through it - and I see a low-contrast positive image rather than a negative. It isn't always easy to do, perhaps the film stock or how well it was processed matters?

Yes this is a whisper of the effect I am referring to it is an important aspect of the perceptual differential of the reflected / transmitted light image. Special processing can magnify and enhance the effect on a black and white print as I posted at the start of this thread.

These effects are often seen in old black and white silver gelatine prints decades old and are 'accidental' phenomena relating to ageing processes in the emulsion of the print. My intention was to 'engineer and enhance' the effect as a desirable creative property of the print rather than a curio or accident due to long term storage. Its the shift of thinking that purports that kinetic phenomena can be a desirable creative component of still photography, rather than undesirable accidents detracting from the sacrosanct Holy Grail of total archival permanence, that I am concerned with. Deliberately engineered (rather than accidental) temporal effects - prints changing through time, is the other element of 'Spatio Temporal Kinetic Imaging'. And yes this phenomenon goes back to the very inception of photography and the 'problem' of permanence.

Theo Sulphate · Jul 22, 2017

waterpump said:
Yes. The Tin Process, which is a complex and carefully controlled bleach / light exposure / redevelopment technique to create a very thin semi-reflective layer on the surface of the print that is correlated to the silver density of the original print.
...
I've not done this for over 20 years so I don't have any 'fresh' prints to upload.

I like the effect with the image you showed us. Will you be making these again?

waterpump · Jul 22, 2017

Theo Sulphate said:
I like the effect with the image you showed us. Will you be making these again?

I'd love to - BUT its a matter of finding the time and digging out my old notes from over 20 years ago. Checking my old chemical stocks to see if they are still usable. Also the prints are quite difficult to produce! And I'm not sure that currently available B&W papers will respond in the same way ;-)
However... watch this space...

removed account4 · Jul 24, 2017

Arctic amateur said:
I have observed that if I look at the emulsion side of a negative strip and hold it just right with respect to the light, I see the light reflected off the emulsion instead of the light transmitted through it - and I see a low-contrast positive image rather than a negative. It isn't always easy to do, perhaps the film stock or how well it was processed matters?

i get this effect too, and was told by someone that this is the same effect used to make tintypes/ambrotypes.
not sure about your negatives this happens to, but mine are usually thin/under exposed like an ambrotype/tintype.
john

waterpump · Mar 15, 2020

Theo Sulphate said:
I like the effect with the image you showed us. Will you be making these again?

FYI I'm going to resurrect this 'kinetic' process in the next few weeks (end March 2020), so watch this space...'

waterpump · Mar 13, 2021

Just to let you know - I resurrected the 'kinetic tin process' several months ago, using the same negative as my original prints. It was difficult as my original notes were not as detailed as I thought and I had to use a different paper. Here are two photos from the same print viewed at different angles. There are surface marks on the image that appeared as a result of the process giving each print a unique patina. These can be avoided, or at least minimised, with very careful handling during the long processing sequence.
I have a video of viewing the print as the angle changes to show the dynamic change from one visualisation to another. If there is interest I'll post it, or give a link.

moggi1964 · Mar 13, 2021

Fascinating! Thank you to all the posters in this thread, I am learning a lot.

waterpump · Mar 14, 2021

Here is the video on vimeo. The print is turned on its side to make maximum use of the horizontal video format. You can see clearly the differentiation of the reflected / transmitted image and the kinetic transition between the two. This is much more subtle than the Mirror effect. Note that the reflected image requires light strong in blue / violet wavelengths, like daylight. Under tungsten the effect is weak to barely perceptible. And many thanks to model Diane Hallam.

removed account4 · Mar 14, 2021

hey waterpump
fantastic stuff !!
thanks for the video and thanks for remembering us and posting here again !
best
John

waterpump · Mar 15, 2021

jnantz said:
hey waterpump
fantastic stuff !!
thanks for the video and thanks for remembering us and posting here again !
best
John

You are most welcome jnantz / John. I apologise for the long delay. I have learned a lot from this group and been inspired by the comments too.
For those interested in the Kinetic Tin technique, B/W prints must be made on FB paper, it uses a ferricyanide / chloride bleach to completion, light exposure, a two bath redevelopment using 1) stannous chloride / hydrochloric acid and 2) dilute ammonia. The redevelopment stage is critical, delicate and can take up to an hour. The exact details have never been published publicly, but offered privately to individuals who wish to use the technique.

Spatio-Temporal Kinetic Imaging?

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