Spare Some Advice for a New Large Format Photographer?

Since I got into large format pinhole I've been itching to get into lens based large format photography. My plan was to sell off a lot of my cameras that see little use and use the money next Christmas to buy a large format camera. I haven't done much research yet into what I was going to buy, but since I primarily shoot landscapes it was likely going to be a field camera of some sort.
I had to go into the local camera repair store today to have my rangefinder aligned on my Voigtlander Bessa R3M and thought maybe I could sell off some of these cameras to them. The ones for sale included:
pentax km, an almost complete setup for a pentax auto110 (original metal case, all lenses, winder, flash, etc.. Only missing a few caps), a polaroid onestep along with a new old stock flash unit, a lubitel 166u with sportsfinder and 4x5 mask with box and instructions, a fuji instax mini neo 90, and a takumar zoom lens. For the most part everything works as it's supposed to (the pentax's light meter doesn't work). I hate shipping cameras and using ebay but I'll sell on kijiji if I have to, but thought selling to the repair store might be a good way to make some money without having to spend too much time and energy.
That's when he came back at me saying he had a crown graphic for sale. He took some photos of my cameras and was going to see what lens he could come up with for the crown graphic, along with what the rangefinder adjustment should cost and let me know what kind of deal he'd be willing to make. I'm not sure if he's going to buy any or all of my cameras.
Now I'm taken a little off guard. I imagined I'd have a lot of time to look into large format cameras and I'd spend time figuring out what I wanted to buy. Obviously I have no idea what a second hand crown graphic is worth. I think it's safe to say that this one is in good condition as he repairs and shoots cameras for a living. He's an active member of the photography community here in town, thought well of by the community, but he's also a good businessman. I have no reason to believe he's pawning a poor worn out piece of equipment out on me-in fact I'd believe quite the opposite. He mentioned it's rangefinder is off but he'd fix that. He also said he rarely uses it because he prefers to focus using the ground glass. No mention what lens will come with this camera but one will come with it.
I primarily shoot nature photography. Landscapes mostly but it's not always grand sweeping vistas. It might be a tree, or a rock, or a cove. I don't travel to zion or to the grand canyon. I'm not up north shooting icebergs. Mostly I'm in the woods, or along the coast. When I shoot 4x5 i often use my 72mm cone. For 35mm I'm often shooting between 40mm and 75mm.
Now I understand the crown graphic has no rear movements (but I'm told these are only used occasionally and may not be of much use to me). I also understand it has some rise and fall, a small amount of shift, some tilt (backwards only), and no swing.
What I'm asking the community is what do you think the value of this camera should be ( I know it's hard to answer this without knowing what lens it will come with) and would it be a good camera for how I use a camera-given my description earlier?
Should I buy this camera or should I hold out for something else? I think this might be a good way for me to go because it clears out space in my closet (much needed), my cameras offset the cost of buying the crown graphic and repair of my rangefinder, and gets me into 4x5 lens based photography. I'm just not sure if this is the right camera for me, or if I'm giving away the farm using my cameras as a trade in potentially getting poor trade in value.
I've come to value the opinions of the members of photrio- even when the responses are harsh. Please give me your candid thoughts.

My 4/5 is an Anniversary Folmer-Graflex. It was made for press photography, hold it up, fire.
If you’re up to slower work, go all movements. I am very used to the rigid CAMERA OBSCURA as with movie apparatus, so the Graflex is fine. You may encounter situations where you want to look down or up steeply or not so steeply but introduce the geometric tricks of shifting, tilting, Scheimpflug.

Just a couple thoughts, pick and choose if they apply to you

I think it might be worth thinking how the camera will fit into the bigger picture of what you want to do. I don't have a 4x5 enlarger, so for me, whether it's pinhole or lensed, I like larger formats that I can contact print from. If you mostly scan your film, this might not be a consideration for you.

I also think part of the charm of LF photography is looking at the ground glass and imagining the whole print you will make, seeing with your eyes what different framing or movements do. Although I've wondered how well you can really do that with a 4x5 GG -- someone else could answer that.

Crown Graphics are great for what they are but I would not recommend one for landscape photography. They are too limited.

I do recommend to get into large format inexpensively. Some find they don't like sheet film. Most of us end up selling our first camera and later buying what we want after we become more educated. How about an Intrepid camera?

https://intrepidcamera.co.uk/products/intrepid-camera

For lenses you might want to start with a normal lens like a 150mm. For wide angle lenses the 90mm is the most popular. To me a 90mm feels like my 25mm did on my old Contax 35mm camera.

Here is some information for you to read.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info

It would be wise for you to join the Large Format Photography Forum. It's like this forum but specializes in large format photography. Many of us here are also members there. We would be glad to have you!

If you want to try out large format without a lot of money committed to it, then a Graphic camera is a decent way to do it. I have a Speed with an inverted front standard that I've been using for 20some years now. Works ok, but I don't really use it a ton. Most movements on a view camera are completely useless/more for convenience really. For landscape work, a little rise/fall and tilt in the front standard will cover almost everything. The Graphics can pretty much do this. If you start doing more technical stuff like studio, still lives, or architecture, or get into really wide or long lenses, then you need a camera that can be moved around like a pretzel.

The downside of the Graphics is they are a pain to shoot vertical with since you have to rotate the camera.

Hope that helps.

I have a Speed Graphic which is a Crown Graphic with a focal plane shutter. The Crown Graphic will let you do what you want with large format. I have to use ground glass with the 90mm lens, and I have used it with the 135mm and the 210mm lens. I use the ground glass to keep buildings from leaning back when they are above me. Also you will find that you can use the Crown Graphic for hand held photographs, just like the press photographers did. Enjoy.

Also you can sell the camera and any lenses for about what you paid for them, so you will not be out any money. See the Large Format Photography Forum for ideas and advice.

I'd say it depends entirely on the price. I wouldn't look to it as a long-term solution, and it's not a full-bore view camera, but if it's cheap enough, why not? Just to put it at extremes, for $150 I'd do it as a fun introduction; for $400 I'd save that money towards what I really want. I have seen them within that range, so there you go. I wasn't even looking for one but one showed up for $150 and I jumped, and have not regretted it, though I rarely use it anymore.

Alan Gales said:

Crown Graphics are great for what they are but I would not recommend one for landscape photography. They are too limited.

I do recommend to get into large format inexpensively. Some find they don't like sheet film. Most of us end up selling our first camera and later buying what we want after we become more educated. How about an Intrepid camera?

https://intrepidcamera.co.uk/products/intrepid-camera

For lenses you might want to start with a normal lens like a 150mm. For wide angle lenses the 90mm is the most popular. To me a 90mm feels like my 25mm did on my old Contax 35mm camera.

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How easy is it to find second hand large format lenses? Also, how do you know what kind of lens board they mount on and where does one buy those? I have thought about those intrepid cameras and they do seem to be a nice lightweight alternative. I also like the fact that the bellows are brand new and you can buy replacements new as well.

mdarnton said:

I'd say it depends entirely on the price. I wouldn't look to it as a long-term solution, and it's not a full-bore view camera, but if it's cheap enough, why not? Just to put it at extremes, for $150 I'd do it as a fun introduction; for $400 I'd save that money towards what I really want. I have seen them within that range, so there you go. I wasn't even looking for one but one showed up for $150 and I jumped, and have not regretted it, though I rarely use it anymore.

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Useful advice! I have no idea what he was looking at for price on the camera alone. I'm concerned he's going to take my cameras and still want additional cash. I expect the repair on my rangefinder to cost about $200 and if he wants about $200 for his camera then it's unlikely my "trade" will cover that much (although I see my pentax auto 110 setup is fetching about 250 on ebay, or at least that's the asking price). I'll keep these numbers in mind, adjusting for exchange. Much appreciated!

Ces1um said:

How easy is it to find second hand large format lenses? Also, how do you know what kind of lens board they mount on and where does one buy those? I have thought about those intrepid cameras and they do seem to be a nice lightweight alternative. I also like the fact that the bellows are brand new and you can buy replacements new as well.

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I've been using a Horseman field camera for the last couple of years and am very happy. Light and the 150mm linhof I got with it fits inside when closed. It seems the lens boards exterior dimensions are based on what camera and the interior diameter is based on what shutter is in the lens. I.e. compur, copal etc.

Bear in mind that there are different types of shutters and sizes, usually labelled 0, 1 2 3 or something like that. Some lenses will also require recessed lens boards in order to work with a certain camera depending on focal length.

mdarnton said:

I'd say it depends entirely on the price. I wouldn't look to it as a long-term solution, and it's not a full-bore view camera, but if it's cheap enough, why not? Just to put it at extremes, for $150 I'd do it as a fun introduction; for $400 I'd save that money towards what I really want. I have seen them within that range, so there you go. I wasn't even looking for one but one showed up for $150 and I jumped, and have not regretted it, though I rarely use it anymore.

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haha this sort of happened to me recently and now I have a mamiya 645 kit Offered the guy more money, but he wasnt interested... Fine with me!

The Crown Graphic was designed as a Press camera. It is a Speed Graphic without the focal plane shutter. It was first introduced in 1947 with a spring (Graphic) back. It came with or without a side rangefinder which could be either a Kalart or Hugo Meyer, the Kalart being more desirable. In the early 1950's the Graflok back became the standard. The Graflok design was licensed and is known as the International back. In 1955 Graflex introduced its own rangefinder called the Graphic Rangefinder wich is mounted on the top of the camera.
The standard lens was the 135mm Optar in a Graphex shutter. These are Wollensak products rebadged for Graflex. The next most common was the 127mm Ektar in Supermatic shutter. 90mm Optar/Raptar and Angulon are also available and often found on Graphic lens boards.
The value of the camera will depend on the vintage, rangefinder, and lens with shutter.
http://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/pacemaker-crown-graphic.html
http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/graflex_4.html

There are at least 2-3 NEW 4x5 cameras being made for under $500 now. Buy one and see if you like it. If you like LF, then sell it to buy a better one. If not, just sell it, ha ha.

Richard Man said:

There are at least 2-3 NEW 4x5 cameras being made for under $500 now. Buy one and see if you like it. If you like LF, then sell it to buy a better one. If not, just sell it, ha ha.

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Do you know who is selling them? I've been to B&H's site and they're all well over $1000. What brands are they? I'm also seeing that most crown graphics with a lens are going for about $600 on ebay. That seems a far cry from the 150-400 that another member quoted. I'm thinking they must have been quoting camera minus a lens. Any thoughts?

Never just look at ebay prices. Go over to the left, down a bit and check "sold" to see the prices of the ones that actually sold. Ebay is the place where sellers exercise their fantasies about what their junk is worth in some imaginary world, but the real world lives among the "sold" items.

I'd wait. I'm not saying don't get it. I'm just saying you need more time to do some research and figure out what you want to do and how much you're looking to spend. Crown Graphics aren't rare, and they often are fairly affordable. So there's little harm in waiting.

For me, I use a Sinar F1 for movements. It's got all of the movements I could ever want. It does lack two things, however. One is portability, and the other is a focal plane shutter. They actually do make a focal plane shutter for it, but it's never cheap. So for me, the Speed Graphic was the obvious solution. Now I have one studio camera with all of the movements and one press camera with a focal plane shutter (used for old barrel lenses, projector lenses, and enlarger lenses). I usually take my Speed Graphic with me out into the wilderness. It's light, sturdy, and can take a beating and keep on working. I don't mind the lack of movements, because the only movements I've ever used for landscape photography is a little bit of forward tilt (which can be achieved either through a combination of bed drop and back tilt, or by swapping the front standard around backwards to give you back tilt instead of forward tilt) and front rise. All of the other movements aren't really necessary for landscape. They do come in handy from time to time for product photography, architecture, tilt-shift city scenes, and occasionally portraiture.

In the US, a Crown Graphic reasonably clean in good functional condition would fetch between $200-300. This is with a standard lens, either a 127mm Ektar or a 135mm Optar. Both lenses will take good quality images and are the approximate equivalent of a 40mm lens on a 35mm camera. 4x5 format is slightly more "square" than a 35mm frame. You can only use lenses mounted in shutters, but otherwise almost any large format lens can be used. Depending on the size of the shutter, it may not connect to the linkage for the shutter button. Also larger lenses may prevent closing the camera with the lens attached. A Speed Graphic has a built-in focal-plane shutter, so it can be used with almost any large-format lens with or without shutter.

Used LF lenses are available for very good prices used, compared to new (top $$$$). Most LF shooters are careful with their equipment, so there are plenty of lenses in good condition. Top quality modern lenses (less than 30-40 years old) are made by Rodenstock, Schneider, Nikkor and Fuji. There are also good lenses from less well-known names. I have several Caltar lenses which are just re-badged Schneiders and Rodenstocks, but cost less because of the name.

A used Crown is a reasonably good way to test the LF waters. They can be used hand-held (in good light), are durable and easy to adjust or repair. For landscapes or portraits they have enough movements for most situations. You can focus with the attached RF (if calibrated to the lens), or on the ground-glass, and you can frame your shots with the attached VF, wire frame finder or on the GG. If you sell it, you should be able to get close to what you paid, unlike most new cameras which depreciate immediately. Some things to check before buying: all adjustment knobs turn smoothly and lock down tight, the front bed opens and closes smoothly and "snaps" open and shut securely, the focusing rail moves smoothly using the focus knobs, the RF is calibrated to the lens, the GG is clean and not cracked, the fold-out hood is attached and opens/closes easily, also check the bellows for any damage or holes.

Ces1um said:

How easy is it to find second hand large format lenses? Also, how do you know what kind of lens board they mount on and where does one buy those? I have thought about those intrepid cameras and they do seem to be a nice lightweight alternative. I also like the fact that the bellows are brand new and you can buy replacements new as well.

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It's very easy to find second hand large format lenses. You can look in the for sale section here or on Large Format Photography Forum after you have been a member there for 30 days. KEH also sells large format lenses. There are a ton listed on Ebay. There are other places too.

A lot of cameras have propriety boards. A Crown or Speed Graphic has their boards, Sinar's use Sinar boards, Deardorffs use Deardorff boards etcetera. There are also quite a few cameras that use Linhof/Technika style boards. The Intrepid, Chamonix, Tachihara, Shen Hao, etcetera use Linhof/Technika style boards. I have a reduction board for my Wehman 8x10 that allows me to use these boards. Linhoff/Technika style boards are popular because they are small. You can buy lens boards the same places which I mentioned that you can buy lenses. Badger Graphic's sells new Linhoff/Technika style boards marked Shen Hao. Chamonix sells their own boards. There are other places but it's cheaper to find them used.

Most lens boards are drilled for Copal 0, Copal 1 or Copal 3. These fit lenses mounted in Copal shutters. The older Compur shutters will also fit these sizes. For your first lens, I'd recommend buying Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikkor, Fuji or Caltar lenses in Copal shutters since the Copal shutters are the newest. Don't worry about brand. Let price and condition be your guide. All these lenses are plenty sharp and contrasty. After you know what you are doing you can always buy old lenses if you wish for a look that only they can give you.

Intrepid cameras make plenty sense for someone like you starting out. They are inexpensive and if you later decide you want a different camera you won't get hurt much selling the Intrepid. Also everything is new so you don't have to worry about pinholes in your bellows or something else not quite right with the camera.

I think a Crown is a great place to start in 4x5, it may not be where you end up but its a starting point. They are easy to set up and use and you'll get good results quickly. As others have noted, you will have little need for movements for landscape other than a little front tilt and perhaps a little rise. The lenses they come with don't have a lot of coverage so they'll match the limited movements. I shouldn't think you will need to spend more than $250-300 for a nice one with a lens and a few holders. I think there was a Super Speed Graphic in the classifieds here for about $250 IIRC. Take some time to head over to the Large Format Forum and read http://www.largeformatphotography.info/ there is a trove of very valuable information there. That's where I started out.

I have a Graflex View camera in good used condition with a lens, I paid $250 Australian dollars - $200 us.
I also have a Linhof Technika III press camera, in excellent condition I paid $500, plus I got about $200 worth of extras with it.
4X5 cameras a cheap and plentiful as are the lens, if you look around, even here.
Press cameras are pretty compact and quick and easy to set up, if you dont need a lot of movement, then it should suffice.
Also factor in you need a good sturdy tripod, a good dark cloth, some film holders and an appropriate developing tank.

Ces1um

think of a speed or crown graphic like a big 35mm camera with a little bit of rise. and if you know how, tilt..
the one you have been offered is probably worth about 200$ USD .. if it is in good condition
and has a GRAFLOK back. spring backs aren't as desirable ..
there are new cameras being made usually out of carbon fiber or plastic ..

good luck !
john

As btaylor says there is the Super Speed Graphic. There is also the Super Graphic. The Super Speed Graphic has a lens with a really fast shutter. The Super Graphic is the same camera but without that lens and shutter combination. From my understanding the front tilt on these two cameras tilt both ways unlike Crowns and Speeds. Also they both have revolving backs so you don't have to tilt your camera on it's side for portrait view like with the Crown and Speed Graphics.

With these cameras you can use a 90mm lens if you drop the bed. A 90 is as wide as you can go though which may be fine with you.

I like to use the Speed Graphic [or Crown Graphic] hand held. I also use it on a tripod and focus with the ground glass. I have not found the limited movements, limiting.

Sirius Glass said:

I like to use the Speed Graphic [or Crown Graphic] hand held. I also use it on a tripod and focus with the ground glass. I have not found the limited movements, limiting.

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That's because you are used to using your Hasselblad!