Source for Sodium Selenite

Claire Senft · Sep 17, 2008

I have in the past made Flemish toner directly from Selenium metal. My only problem is the very short shelf life of the mixed toner. Selenium metal is easily purchased and inexpensive. I am fully aware of the toxicity situation.

Is it possible to make Sodium Selenite form Selenium metal? If so how would it be done.

I know that it can be had as a mineral supplement in capsules but I would get very little chemical woth a great deal of additives.

Does any one have a source for Sodium Selenite? About 15 grams would make approx. (1) gallon of a toner similar KRST.

amuderick · Sep 17, 2008

My gut was right. See here from wikipedia:

"The sodium selenite salt is usually prepared by the reaction of selenium dioxide with sodium hydroxide:

SeO2 + 2 NaOH → Na2SeO3 + H2O "

Selenium Dioxide can also be purchased as Selenous (or Selenious) acid.

If you can get selenium metal, then you can make selenium dioxide by either burning the metal in air or reacting with hydrogen peroxide.

Two step reaction. Be careful. Should be a fun project.

dancqu · Sep 18, 2008

Claire Senft said:
I have in the past made Flemish toner...

Does any one have a source for Sodium Selenite?
About 15 grams would make approx. (1) gallon
of a toner similar KRST.

I've a small quantity of sodium selenite purchased
from a near by chemical supply house. There are
transport restrictions as it is most hazardous.

I've yet to make use of it. Do you happen to know
of a formula which makes use of it? I do know that
the elemental form can be dissolved in sodium
sulfite solution. Dan

eclarke · Sep 18, 2008

Scienclab lists 100g for about $70.00 Link.. http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/10426/SLS4189

Claire Senft · Sep 18, 2008

Thank you all.

Here is a formula for a product similar to KRST.
Water 500ml
Ammonium Thiosulfate 50% Sol. 100ml
Sodium Sulphide 30grams
Sodium Selenide 4grams
Water to make a liter.

This formula was listed in May/June Photo Techniques magazine. It was supplied by Dr. Robert Chapman. If you are going to make this toner I advise wearing a dust mask. It is highly toxic thru inhalation and or course ingesting it is also deadly.

eclarke · Sep 18, 2008

Claire Senft said:
Thank you all.

Here is a formula for a product similar to KRST.
Water 500ml
Ammonium Thiosulfate 50% Sol. 100ml
Sodium Sulphide 30grams
Sodium Selenide 4grams
Water to make a liter.

This formula was listed in May/June Photo Techniques magazine. It was supplied by Dr. Robert Chapman. If you are going to make this toner I advise wearing a dust mask. It is highly toxic thru inhalation and or course ingesting it is also deadly.

If you are really in Milwaukee, check with Brian in the chemicals department at Laabs Pharmacy. I've bought many exotic chemicals form him...Evan Clarke

Claire Senft · Sep 18, 2008

I have purchased items from Laabs also.

Who would lie about being in Milwaukee?

dancqu · Sep 18, 2008

Claire Senft said:
Thank you all.

Here is a formula for a product similar to KRST.
Water 500ml
Ammonium Thiosulfate 50% Sol. 100ml
Sodium Sulphide 30grams
Sodium Selenide 4grams
Water to make a liter.

This formula was listed in May/June Photo Techniques magazine.
It was supplied by Dr. Robert Chapman. If you are going to make
this toner I advise wearing a dust mask. It is highly toxic thru
inhalation and or of course ingesting it is also deadly.

Similar to KRST? I don't see that. The results may be similar
but that formula is far from. First it is the ide of selenium
rather than the ite. Secondly is the inclusion of sodium
sulfide and so much of it.

As I recall a selenium toner may be composed of nothing
more than some small amount of elemental selenium
dissolved in a solution of sodium sulfite. Dan

Photo Engineer · Sep 18, 2008

There is a big difference between Na2S and Na2SO3 (IDE vs ITE) and Na2Se and Na2SeO3 (IDE vs ITE). The latter two are far more toxic of course, and the IDES are far less stable and more toxic than the ITES. Beware the IDES of Selenium and March both, or you can end up like big Julie with a pain in the portico.

These chemicals will get to you right in the rotunda! Then you lose your hair and any gender associated attributes and it goes downhill after that.

Beware of a garlic odor on your breath. By that time it is too late usually.

PE

dancqu · Sep 18, 2008

Google Groups rec.photo.darkroom

Search rec.photo.darkroom for, sodium selenite .
There a lot of information. Some very meaty.

IIRC Kodak up untill a few years ago made available
a toner blend of selenium and sulfide. A Kodak formula
was made available via the WWW for those interested.

Some one may correct me but I believe it was Kodak that
added the RAPID, ammonium thiosulfte, to selenium toners.
Also I've read it implied that the thiosulfate acts to make
selenium a safer toner.

I wonder if Sodium thiosulfate might not work just as
well. That have been KSST. Dan

Photo Engineer · Sep 18, 2008

Dan;

I've heard the same, but never inside EK. The interesting thing is that if it does, the means is unclear except for the following possibility...

Just as Sodium Sulfite -> Sodium Sulfate in hypo solutions, thereby protecting hypo from oxidation, the Selenite might do the same thing and the Selenate is less toxic, but IDK by how much. And, since I don't want to work with it, I have not run, nor don't intend to run the tests. I was exposed to lots of Selenium Dioxide in grad school making alpha-diketones. After listening to stories at EK and finding their reluctance to get into Selenium sensitization and Selenium sensitizing dyes, I am a bit too negative about Se.

PE

eclarke · Sep 18, 2008

Claire Senft said:
I have purchased items from Laabs also.

Who would lie about being in Milwaukee?

A Chicagoan in hiding...EC

Claire Senft · Sep 19, 2008

I MADE A BIG MISTAKE:

I originally asked for information on Sodium Selenite. This is what I wanted.

THE FORMULA THAT I LISTED WAS ERRONEOUS:

IT SHOULD READ AS FOLLOWS:

water 500ml
Ammonium Thiosulfate (50% sol.) 100ml
Sodium Sufide 30grams
Sodium Selenite 4grams
water to make 1 liter

I know very little about chemistry.
Does this appear to be more like KRST than the incorrect version?

Photo Engineer · Sep 19, 2008

Not to be picky, but the Sodium Sulfide has a very very strong odor of rotten eggs. Kodak toner does not IIRC. So, I doubt if this is exactly like the Kodak product. The solution described above should be alkaline which might repress the odor, but the solid would stink quite a bit.

IDK, just a thought. I don't know the KRST formula and never did, being very disinterested in compounding selenium formulas.

PE

psvensson · Sep 19, 2008

Claire, KRST is a straight selenium toner. The formula you provided has sulfur as well, which makes it more like the old Kodak Polytoner. Flemish toner also combines sulfur and selenium. If that's what you're looking for, consider buying Moersch Carbon Toner from Freestyle, now that they carry it. It contains sodium selenite and sodium sulfide.

Trevor Crone · Sep 19, 2008

The only published Kodak selenium toner formula I've come across is T-55.

T-55 selenium toner

Stock solution
sodium sulphite, anhydrous - 150g
selenium powder - 6g
ammonium chloride - 190g
water to make 1L

Dissolve the sodium sulphite in 750ml of hot water. When completely dissolved add the selenium powder and boil for approx 30 minutes*. Any remaining insoluble matter must be filtered off. When cool add the ammonium chloride and stir until completely dissolved. Then make up to 1L with cold water.

For use dilute 1:5, 1 part T-55 to 5 parts water.

*The heating (boiling) of selenium is a very hazadous procedure and something I would certainly not recommend with out access to a fully working/tested fume cupboard. Something I once had access to when I used to prepare this solution.

Also note that this is not the same as KRST.

Kirk Keyes · Sep 19, 2008

Claire Senft said:
I MADE A BIG MISTAKE:

{snip}

I know very little about chemistry.

Perhaps you should think twice about making something like this. The raw constituents are not as nice and safe as most other photo chemicals.

Claire Senft said:
Does this appear to be more like KRST than the incorrect version

I think this is similar to what Kodak used to call "Polytoner" - it was a mix of selenium and sulfide toners.

Kirk Keyes · Sep 19, 2008

A safer way to make something like this would be to take KRST and add a bit of sodium sulfide and see how that goes. It's still going to be stinky, but much less hazardous to do.

Aurum · Sep 19, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
There is a big difference between Na2S and Na2SO3 (IDE vs ITE) and Na2Se and Na2SeO3 (IDE vs ITE). The latter two are far more toxic of course, and the IDES are far less stable and more toxic than the ITES. Beware the IDES of Selenium and March both, or you can end up like big Julie with a pain in the portico.

These chemicals will get to you right in the rotunda! Then you lose your hair and any gender associated attributes and it goes downhill after that.

Beware of a garlic odor on your breath. By that time it is too late usually.

PE

I've not experienced Selenium toner, but PE is right about the odour of selenium compounds. I've been a fan of old valve (Tube) equipment since I was young, and some of them had selenium recifiers in there.
I tried reviving a old piece of kit that had one in that wanted to stay dead. The link attached is an indication of what happens when you don't pull the power quick enough. I was lucky and killed the power very quickly before things got anywhere near dangerous

http://yarchive.net/electr/selenium_rectifiers.html

It was like cleaning out the rotting bins at the Gilroy Garlic Festival. Google that if you have a strong stomach

dancqu · Sep 20, 2008

psvensson said:
The formula you provided has sulfur as well,
which makes it more like the old Kodak Polytoner.

Kodak Polytoner. That is the one I had in mind and refered
to in my post # 10. Kodak has/had posted a formula for
it's home brew replacement.

Apparently the sulfur contained in older KRST prodution
accounted for it's 'archival' effects. New, and now for
some years, the product has been minus that sulfur.
At least there has been no word to the contrary.

By all accounts the addition of some little sulfur to
off the shelf KRST SHOULD restore it's 'archival'
nature. All interested in the old Kodak Poly
should do a Google search. Dan

Source for Sodium Selenite

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