source for simple lens designs?

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Struan Gray

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That was a bit garbled (or brief). My point is that viewfinder diopters are sold for a different purpose than close-up lens diopters. Perhaps an example will elucidate:

Say for the sake of argument you have a simple eyepiece lens 10 cm away from a viewing screen, that's a +10 diopter if you want the virtual image of the screen to be at infinity. If you wear +1 glasses and want to use the viewfinder without them on you will need an eyepiece lens with a power of +11 - the same power as the old eyepiece lens and your glasses combined. Thus, for this hypothetical camera, a new eyepiece lens marked "+1", sold for people with +1 glasses, will actually be a +11 diopter.

In real viewfinders there is usually a condensor lens (or Fresnel) right at the screen, the eyepiece lens tends to be closer to the screen than 10 cm, and the virtual image tends not to be at infinity (more like 40-50 cm). That makes the lenses in the eyepiece diopter less high magnification than my +10/+11 example, but a "+1" eyepiece diopter will not in general have the same focal length as a "+1" close-up lens.

For example, I recently got a "+1" lens for my Hasselblad's waist level viewer (old eyes :smile:. It has a focal length around 200 mm if I remember rightly, certainly not 1000 mm. I can check tonight, and compare it to the "0" lens it replaced.
 

Ole

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Viewfinders are usually at -1 without correcting diopters, so to get to +2 you need to add a +3 diopter correction lens - 333mm. To +3, you would need a 250mm +4 correction lens.
 
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I think the best option for experiments where you hope for salvageable outcome would be single lenses and symmetrical-to-nearly-symmetrical doublets. Next, maybe asymmetrical doublets like a Wide Angle Rapid Rectilinear or similar by other names I can't remember at the moment...aplanat?

We've been warned by many that even the seemingly simple Cooke triplet and it's grandchildren have very critical spacing...because it accomplishes alot through careful design and assembly. Through careless assembly (found optics, guessed spacing), what was accomplished won't be. If you have the parts, experimenting is cheap.

I'm pretty sure the idea behind additional elements was to accomplish additional aberration correction. At some point someone realized spacing, curvature and index of refraction all can be combined to correct to a large extent most of the 7 most common aberrations troubling lens design. There is a patent that discusses some classic designs and assigns a numeric value to the amount of correction accomplished in each design by the three techiques mentioned above. Brian Caldwell, optics and software designer has mentioned in some cases exotic glass can be done away with by altering spacing.
Cool, but beyond most home experiments.

4-element lenses like Tessars are a variation of a triplet, with one element 'split' into two to allow specific corrections.

The beauty of symmetrical lenses is alot of bad stuff is cancelled by an identical lens (oh, you have to have them centered and collimated decently, not impossible). The beauty of a small f-number is is makes alot of stuff go away also, until it's so small diffraction problems begin to be visible. So a small aperture symmetrical lens gives you alot for you money or scrounging.

The position of a stop or aperture, if centered is theoretically ideal for 1:1 macro. Thinking about whether moving it forward or backward of center for optimizing at infinity gives me mechanical dyslexia. Maybe someone will answer that here. Some people have told me that cell spacing isn't as critical with simple lenses and long f.l. lenses, but a gut feeling tells me that centering/collimation is more critical on longer f.l. No substantiation there, just gut feeling.

I still have no clue about coverage for a given design, other than the following:

From Green, Primitive Photography, probably taken from an old classic British lens I forgot the designer of, is try to use lens elements of diameter 1/7-1/5 times overall f.l. with spacing at similar proportion.

Coverage using the rule of thumb f.l. = diagonal of negative will probably result in illumination but aberration as you move outward from center. Some of the Greene lenses I thought had 'usable' coverage on the order of 20-30 degrees.

If you want sharper images over the full negative, aim for a much longer f.l. (2x 'normal' +/-) and be prepared to baffle some of the excessive coverage/illumination capability inside the camera to alleviate flare.

If you're shooting b/w and don't have achromat cells, try a contrast filter ranging from heavy yellow to orange to red to narrow the spectrum and reduce achromaticity. It lends itself well to most subject matter with some exposure/development effort, better than shooting everything thru a blue filte any way.

Back to symmetry...since choices are poor in surplus catalogs with regard to mimicking a careful commercial design, two of 'whatever' will reward you. Oh, just don't use two negative diopter lenses. To actually see what you are focussing the net diopter value has to be positive.

Now, to dispense with the obsession for perfection, which some say is over-rated, and bowing to evaluative esthetics, see John Siskin's article on homemade lenses. He goes right ahead with a number of triplet experiments - you just don't re-create a Cooke Triplet haphazardly.

I think it was a 2002 View Camera magazine article and it is on the web somewhere, maybe John's webs site. Oops, I just corrected spelling of his name
http://www.siskinphoto.com/magazine1a.html click on image for copy of article.

Better make room for every little piece of glass you start hoarding , disaassembling every malfunctioning or lousy lens you come across, buying old camcorders, etc. You don't find pairs of identical elements this way, but you find some cheap cool stuff.

Another fun thing to do, with no idea as to quality of results, is to take a negative diopter lens and put it behind a positive lens to lengthen the f.l. and coveage. A short lens (ie. 40-50 mm) has a large diopter value so you have alot of options with negative lenses before the net diopter sum goes negative.

Long lenses have small diopter values (1 m = 1 diopter) so you have hardly any off-the-shelf negative options.

I pulled a Tessar out of an Olympus AF 35mm camera, 38 mm I think, and put (-) elements behind it but haven't exposed any film yet, just looked at ground glass (it's cheap and I'm easily amused).

I use the Gullstrand's Equation calculator on the Hyperphysics (Georgia) site to e.s.t.i.m.a.t.e. what happens as you vary spacing.

I just finished my Abominatar lens for a camera obscura, theoretical f.l. 8 m (8000 mm), but I have no idea where to measure it from. I have to mount it because it's really shaky trying go hold it and focus a light bulb across the room. I suspect coverage will be narrow because it's very long for it's diameter (roughly 2m long, 40 + 70 mm glass diameter)
 
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rippo

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Murray:

yikes! and thanks! what a thoughtful, in-depth response. (not to belittle the other, thoughtful responses...)

first, i should be clear that i am NOT trying to replicate anything of super high quality. i don't plan on building a Super Angulon from cardboard and a magnifying glass. i'm looking for 'interpretive' lenses here, with personality. but not so much personality that i'm forced into abstract photography against my will.

so i guess i need to get experimenting! mounting these is the part that takes all the time though, which is why was searching around for either designs or rules of thumb, so i didn't waste time putting four negative elements and a goldfish into a tube and finding out it didn't work.

i've downloaded the siskin article and read it once. thanks! i'll refer back to your post as i muck around with this. i've also bought a (really bad, wavy) magnifying glass, and 'borrowed' my the front elements from my son's cheap telescope to play with.

anyone have ideas for a faster (and/or more secure) mounting technique than the one described in Primitive Photography?
 

semeuse

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I've found that using tin cans works well (seriously). I cut a slot for waterhouse stops and can mount the elements securely with a slight variation on the foam core idea that Greene presents in his book - most cans have ridges that work to keep the elements from shifting. I've used coffee cans as well as the smaller ones from canned vegetables - all very scientific of course :smile:
 
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What's even worse than hoarding every lens you get your hands on is nabbing containers from the recycling bin because you (I) think..."this one will make a nice lens barrel, this one will make a good done-shot developer storage bottle, this one will make a good lens hood" ( http://www.f295.org/DIYforum/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl/Blah.pl?b-misEquip/m-1186532724/ ).

I end up with 1 in Recycling and three hidden in the garage.

I'm having more failure than success with adhesives, so I won't offer any advice (for once).
 

walter23

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Viewfinders are usually at -1 without correcting diopters, so to get to +2 you need to add a +3 diopter correction lens - 333mm. To +3, you would need a 250mm +4 correction lens.

Ahh, well there we have it, then. That works out exactly right.
 
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rippo

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I've found that using tin cans works well (seriously). I cut a slot for waterhouse stops and can mount the elements securely with a slight variation on the foam core idea that Greene presents in his book - most cans have ridges that work to keep the elements from shifting. I've used coffee cans as well as the smaller ones from canned vegetables - all very scientific of course :smile:

i'm not above tin cans if i need to. :smile:

the foamcore thing i've been using bugs me though. it doesn't hold the lens elements securely. i ended up making rings from posterboard that fit either side of the lens/foamcore combo, with the inner diameter of the posterboard being just slightly smaller than the lens diameter. this give a little ridge to keep the element from falling out. i might in future use black plastic instead.

there must be a better way. pouring epoxy resin into a circular mold, around the lens with some plastic wrap over it? it's the actual lens mount ring that needs some ingenuity. i just haven't figured out a better way yet.

or i should order lens elements that are just about the same dimension as the inside of the pvc pipe i use, and just throw a little tape around the edges and retaining rings either side. sort of limiting though.
 
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rippo

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What's even worse than hoarding every lens you get your hands on is nabbing containers from the recycling bin because you (I) think..."this one will make a nice lens barrel, this one will make a good done-shot developer storage bottle, this one will make a good lens hood" ( http://www.f295.org/DIYforum/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl/Blah.pl?b-misEquip/m-1186532724/ ).

I end up with 1 in Recycling and three hidden in the garage.

I'm having more failure than success with adhesives, so I won't offer any advice (for once).

i went through my 'dead camera box' this afternoon. decent pile to throw away (how many plastic instamatic non-working cameras do i need anyway?), smaller pile to sell, and quite a few to hack the lenses of. unfortunately i probably need a supply of negative lenses to compensate for the small-format focal lengths. no doubt most of these will end up in the trash too...but i've got at least one 35mm telephoto lens with a front element up for grabs. who knows what else lurks inside?

i must remind myself that i do NOT in fact need a new homemade lens for each photo session. two or three of them might suffice! i do enjoy building these things, but i have to be mindful that building lenses or cameras is not the same thing as taking pictures.

i don't yet save bottles. although i did have a phase where i was saving boxes and oatmeal cannisters for pinhole cameras. that has mostly passed now.
 

bdial

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Has anyone experimented with enlarger condensers as a lens for picture taking? The reason I ask is that the other day at our town recycling center there was a 23 C xl in the scrap metal pile. I rescued it, of course, not that I need yet another enlarger. It isn't complete, but the condenser assembly cleaned up nicely, and in looking through it, I thought it could make an interesting lens.
Anything anyone has tried?

Barry
 
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I have a 4x5 condenser from a half-started homebrew enlarger project. I was thinking the same thing...

I'm not sure what benefit there is in a huge lens with a tiny aperture to correct the overabundance of aberration.

On the other hand, wide open, there is the question of exposure control...use paper negs for long exposures?
 

Joe VanCleave

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The most useful 'improvised lens' I've personally used is the front objective lens cell from a 7x50 binocular. I've an old pair of B&L binos; the front objectives merely unscrew. Each is a doublet, multicoated.

I've been meaning to mount both of these back-to-back, as per Murray's suggestion, and see how good it can look. But I really like the wide open (i.e. F3) look to these lenses, kind of like some of Jim Galli's images, with that cool selective focus in the center of the image with the swirliness going on around it.

These bino objectives also make really good loupes for viewing negatives or slides. And when you're tired of using them for improvised photographic uses, you just screw them back into the bino housing, attach it to a tripod and you're back in business stargazing!

~Joe
 
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rippo

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Joe: I looked for cheap binoculars at the thrift store the other day, but nothing was cheap enough. basically a lens or binocs has to be free, otherwise i can spend $8-15 at surplusshed for a two-lens set. oddly, i don't have a pair lying around. (which is why i raided my poor son's plastic telescope.)

to all: so last night i started taking apart lenses out of junk cameras. unfortunately many of them are 35mm rangefinders with 50mm lenses. the elements aren't going to work well with large format, as they're too short, even as single elements.

however, i pulled apart a Petri rangefinder camera (don't worry, it was busted) and got the front element, plus a negative element, that together seemed to be about 200 mm or so. i can work with that, although it'll probably be f/16 wide open. :sad:

so, if i were to mount this, how do i determine the spacing for the two elements? i don't know the actual focal lengths of either, so just wild guessing: should they touch? an inch or two apart? they're different diameters. any rules of thumb, or should i just roll the dice and see what happens? trying to avoid obvious mistakes.

(i also scored two front elements from a zoom lens that will work nicely as landscape lenses.)
 

semeuse

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Determining the spacing of the two elements is slightly problematic without knowing the focal lengths, though I would venture a guess of about 1.5 - 2" should give you a nice telephoto. Have you seen Kingslake's "A History of the Photographic Lens?" Lots of descriptions and diagrams of all types of lenses from classics to modern (well, through the 80s, anyway).

I have found that the foamcore from Borden (fairly cheap at arts and crafts stores) works very well for holding the elements if I cut the outside diameter slightly larger than the interior of the "barrel" and the inside diameter slightly smaller than the lens element - the compression holds the piece nicely. I have also used weatherstripping (for sealing windows) to good effect - it has the added benefit of being available with adhesive that will hold the glass.
 
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I picked up an old Hoya 35mm zoom that had gravity droop (tilt it and the zoom would move where it wanted).

First hack (mount on a Kodak Retina/Deckel mount with a spacer) was frustrated by smaller Retina rear opening), so I didn't bother.

2nd was trying to get inside to tighten it. I ended up unscrewing the rearmost element, a thin, short f.l. positive element, and I find what's left will probably cover 4x5 or 5x7. No idea what kind of distortion there may be, still have the gravity problem, but I would like to see how it shoots. I also wonder if with f.l. still in the original ballpark if my f/# will stay ballpark too...4.5 wide open.

Maybe I should just clamp it in one position and give up the variable f.l. feature.
 
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rippo

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2nd was trying to get inside to tighten it. I ended up unscrewing the rearmost element, a thin, short f.l. positive element, and I find what's left will probably cover 4x5 or 5x7. No idea what kind of distortion there may be, still have the gravity problem, but I would like to see how it shoots. I also wonder if with f.l. still in the original ballpark if my f/# will stay ballpark too...4.5 wide open.

after i pulled all the elements out of my zoom, and found ones that might be useful, i started thinking "what's the best way to mount these? i sure wish i had a tube that was better than PVC pipe for them. wish i could make a something along the lines of a zoom lens...aw crap."

i could have possibly used the actual zoom lens, minus some elements, as the lens tube. had i not thrown it away. doh!
 
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rippo

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Determining the spacing of the two elements is slightly problematic without knowing the focal lengths, though I would venture a guess of about 1.5 - 2" should give you a nice telephoto. Have you seen Kingslake's "A History of the Photographic Lens?" Lots of descriptions and diagrams of all types of lenses from classics to modern (well, through the 80s, anyway).

I have found that the foamcore from Borden (fairly cheap at arts and crafts stores) works very well for holding the elements if I cut the outside diameter slightly larger than the interior of the "barrel" and the inside diameter slightly smaller than the lens element - the compression holds the piece nicely. I have also used weatherstripping (for sealing windows) to good effect - it has the added benefit of being available with adhesive that will hold the glass.

i haven't read that book, but http://dioptrique.info/ shows me some general arrangements, even if my french isn't very good. you've answered my question i think though: the negative element shouldn't necessarily be in contact with the front element. i'll give it a shot, and either get lucky or not. thanks!

as for mounting them...i've been using black foamcore, probably elmer's. perhaps i need thicker or something, but the lenses don't feel secure. when you say weatherstripping, you mean like vinyl caulking stuff? are you using that in conjunction with the foamcore, or as an alternative? and how do you avoid gunking up your lens?
 

Dan Fromm

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If you have the money, Matt, Edmund Industrial Optics, which formerly traded as Edmund Scientific, has all sorts of holders and mounts for prototyping. They also have singlets with known properties, achromatic doublets, ...
 

semeuse

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Hey Matt -
The weatherstripping I've used comes in rolls from places like Home Depot and Lowes. It is actually a foam tape - no caulking; doesn't really do a wonderful job of weatherproofing, but works for things like door bumpers and quickie lens mounts.
Kris
 

dslater

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If you have the money, Matt, Edmund Industrial Optics, which formerly traded as Edmund Scientific, has all sorts of holders and mounts for prototyping. They also have singlets with known properties, achromatic doublets, ...

Ahh - good old Edmund Scientific - I remember pouring over their catalogs as a child. Now they've split into 2 companies - Edmund Industrial Optics and Scientifics - which unfortunately doesn't seem to have nearly as many cool items as it used to.

Dan
 
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