Sorry I asked

[David Brown]

never mind ...

 

[faberryman]

So, what are the limits to giving away knowledge? Mentoring? Workshops? Schools?

There are no limits to giving away knowledge, other than the time limits you place on yourself. If you want to monetize your knowledge, the limitations are significant. There is no balance "we" have to strike between free and paid instruction. These are individual decisions. Your time and knowledge are not intrinsically valuable (other than to yourself); they are only worth what someone is willing to pay for them on the open market. You sound like you have a nice gig at the Dallas Center for Photography. Enjoy it while you have it. You also might want to keep in mind that others contributed to what you know. I'm willing to bet that it was not all paid for. Pay the kindness forward.

 

[Moopheus]

Presumably at least part of what people are paying for at a darkroom workshop is access to a darkroom, as well as in-person demonstrations and individualized feedback on work product. That's a lot more involved than just giving someone a bit of advice about what film to use with that old Nikon they just got. I mean, you could just say to someone, search the APUG archives, and that will get them a large volume of information about cameras, films, chemicals, papers, etc. So don't worry about being stingy with that sort of knowledge, because it's already out there.

 

[Eric Rose]

Unfortunately not much. The millennials will try and learn all they need off YouTube. Heck even us old geezers will do the same. I quit taking guitar lessons when I found I could learn anything I wanted from YouTube.

 

[faberryman]

So, what are the limits to giving away knowledge? Mentoring? Workshops? Schools?

I just noticed that APUG has 80,000 members. Based on the level of discussions I have participated in here, I suspect a significant number of us could teach the Darkroom 101 course you are teaching, so its not like there is no pool of talent at that level of instruction.

The bad news is that most new film users have not grown up with film being the norm, and do not benefit as we old-timers did with the wealth of resources that used to be available to us when film was the way everybody did photography.

Wealth of resources no longer available? Have you heard of the internet?

 

[David Brown]

Have you heard of the internet?

Apparently not.

 

[grahamp]

Well, to be fair, when film was the only option, that was what was covered in magazines and books. I even did an 'O' Level (UK National Examination taken at age 16) in photography using film I know I could teach an introduction to (film) photography class - I have done it. Would I feel able to do an advanced or 1:1 class? Probably not.

 

[Eric Rose]

Don't pout David

 

[hoffy]

Seriously? I saw this post earlier today and now you have deleted it?

Will people pay to do workshops on darkroom and film photography? Yes, yes they will. Not everyone wants to get every piece of information in their life from Youtube.

I live in Adelaide, Australia. We are not really a big market - far from it, but we still manage to have the occasional class being taught by one person or another. Former APUG member (I'll say former, as he probably hasn't logged into here for ages), Alex Bishop-Thorpe is running the following workshops over the next few months or so:
Crash Course A: Developing Film
Crash Course B: Making prints in the Darkroom
Combined Crash Course A and B
Intro to Large Format photography

Not everyone is comfortable being a member on a place like APUG (80K members? Seriously, how many do you think regularly log on?????) and getting info from here. Not everyone likes to use Youtube as a source of education. Some people (me included) prefer the hands on approach.

The thing is, these courses are not his only source of income.

Yes, there is still a market out there. APUG (& those who think they know better) is not the market.

 

[Down Under]

An interesting connundrum here. Should an OP have the "privilege" of deleting his post only because he is spitting the dummy (a beaut old Aussie phrase) by responses that fail to stroke his ego?

In that case, should the entire thread not be deleted as well? Otherwise it appears to be just comments on a point that no longer exists, and is now somewhat of a waste of time to read.

Let us wait and see how the moderators deal with this issue...

 

[Wayne]

I think the questions posed were valid ones, as were some of the answers. It reminded me of the pro I met who had switched to digital. He had a large RB67 Pro outfit with multiple bodies and numerous lenses and accessories and wanted to sell all or part of it. I offered him about $200 for one body and one lens, which may have been a bit less what they were worth on the market but not by a huge amount. He was profoundly insulted that I undervalued his gear by such a large degree, gear that he had paid a mint for back when it was worth a mint. But it isn't anymore. Its worth a small fraction of what it was once worth. He wouldn't even talk to me after I made that offer.

I think the same goes for traditional photography knowledge. Its worth a lot to us, but its monetary value is limited and much is freely available online. I would like nothing more than to walk away from my current career and teach photography for the rest of my life. But I don't see much market for it. If I were the OP I'd be very happy to be making any money from it. I would simply be asking "how can I better market what I have". Heck, I'm elated to find out the OP is making money from teaching photographjy at all. Obviously there is some market for it, which is great news.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

There is a philosophical problem here. By allowing the OP to delete his first post the thread makes little sense. It would be better to delete the whole thread at this point.

 

[grahamp]

Unfortunate, because there was a good core question about knowledge; its worth and transfer. It looks like film will be around for a while, though we may have to worry about equipment repair as a personal skill, and there may indeed be a 'knowledge gap' from the digital moves in the past couple of decades. Financially, the 'worth' of anything is what the market will bear, and the medium for consumption.

 

[Moopheus]

Not everyone is comfortable being a member on a place like APUG (80K members? Seriously, how many do you think regularly log on?????)

1837 online right now.

 

[Sean]

An interesting connundrum here. Should an OP have the "privilege" of deleting his post only because he is spitting the dummy (a beaut old Aussie phrase) by responses that fail to stroke his ego?

In that case, should the entire thread not be deleted as well? Otherwise it appears to be just comments on a point that no longer exists, and is now somewhat of a waste of time to read.

Let us wait and see how the moderators deal with this issue...

This is a tricky one. The terms of service state that APUG owns all material posted here for the purposes of displaying on this domain. Technically I could 'un-delete' it and be within the terms. However, since day 1 I've always given owners of their data the right to control that data. It's rare that an OP or member wants a post removed (maybe one out of 10,000+ threads or so) or quits APUG and asks all of their content to be removed. Should a member have a right to remove their own content once a thread gets rolling? I can see the dilemma. In this case those who found the topic interesting could post a new thread based on the original discussion topic. I could then merge this thread to it. I'm open to suggestions on finding the best balance for these situations. As the site continues to grow we might have to move away from OPs being able to delete a thread once it becomes active. That could be made more clear in the terms, that thread deletions are allowed unless an active discussion forms.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

... Heck even us old geezers will do the same. I quit taking guitar lessons when I found I could learn anything I wanted from YouTube.

[briefly off topic]

Perhaps you're an advanced player, but this is truly one of the best sites for beginners I've found:

https://www.justinguitar.com/

(a plethora of concept-lessons about 7 minutes each)


[back on topic]

However, no matter how good the internet instruction, there is still no substitute for someone who has a depth of knowledge observing you and making suggestions or corrections. Not only that, you can ask questions and interact in a way that's not possible with internet tutorials.

 

[Truzi]

Does it really matter?

My opinion is to leave things be. If someone deletes their comments within the pre-defined editing period, then that is the "price of admission," so to speak. It's an understood risk of any forum.

Obviously some people find what remains to be valuable - perhaps the missing content can be paraphrased by someone so the thread continues to make sense while allowing the OP to dissociate with this particular topic.

On the other hand, it is not unheard of to have material moderated out of existence without a trace, so what is one more missing thread in the big picture?

 

[MattKing]

I'd just like to encourage David to ask to have his post "undeleted".
And maybe ask Sean to consider adding a sub-forum focused on film and darkroom "beginners".

 

[Down Under]

Sean (#15), you are establishing a loaded precedent here.

Are you saying it's okay for me to post a thread, monitor the responses, and if I don't like the comments, delete my original post? So here we are, affirming the "play by my rules, or I don't play at all" attitude common to children in playgrounds?

Basically, Sean seems to be telling us it's fine to delete an original post and for the rest of us to comment on something we can no longer access, read and consider. This is is the message I got from #15. Is this valid? Or a waste of our time?

in future if I post again, I may most definitely avail myself of this Master Censorship option. Can we not go a step further, and allow OPs to delete any posts they disagree with? I would then have complete control of my posts, and I would greatly appreciate this. It would in fact be even better than letting me delete my OP, as other APUG members could then read my original comments, and post accordingly (as long as I approve of what they write,of course).

No, I do not want that. Rather, I will say that Posts #12 and #17 both made excellent points, and these should be seriously considered before a decision is made about deleting posts.

I will be following all this with interest.

 

[Truzi]

I will be following all this with interest.

I'm following this thread to see if my sarcastic/negative final comment gets my post deleted

 

[MattKing]

The opportunity to delete or change any post is severely time limited. I have no particular problem with anybody having the opportunity to fairly quickly have second thoughts about a question they asked, and then delete it.
It is a little different if you don't have that time limitation.
In the spirit of this discussion, I'll just add "..." and see how many recognize the reference.

 

[Down Under]

Truzi (#20), I may yet claim this dubious honor from you with another fly I will now put on the wall.

If indeed APUG (going by #5 and #14) has 80,000+ members, I am curious to know how many of these are actively participating members?

I also wonder, how many of those who are inactive would drop off altogether if APUG had in place a procedure or system for cancelling one's membership? One other major photo site does, and I recently availed myself of this exit button as I believe it has strayed too far from its core values and is now being filled up with fluff and click bait. I do not want APUG members to drop off for any reason, but to return to my basic point, without knowing the active numbers, a claim of 80,000 or whatever can be considered only a wet finger estimate and may not be anywhere close to the true number of those of us who are still here and writing our posts.

In this vein, I believe that letting OPs withdraw their initial posts when they disagree with the responses they have received, is a retrograde step and is merely reinforcing school yard censorship. A few others have recognised this point and I agree with many of the posts. Others do not see the point and appear to believe that self-censorship should be the norm. With due respect, I do not agree.

In the last two years I have noted a drop in the posts from many of the older APUG members who not so long ago kept all the threads lively and hopping with much useful information and input. I for one greatly miss the Old Timers and I have occasionally thought of joining their ranks. Some appear to have moved to a well-known site without threads consisting answers to deleted original posts. (Says he, having this day contributed two posts to such a thread... )

Call me a smart-ass if you will, but I consider all my points as serious. As you should.

 

[Down Under]

A last, brief (yes!) comment. MattKing (#21) has raised an excellent point here, I believe.

Matt, re your last sentence ("I'll just add "..." and see how many recognize the reference.") Did you mean"reference" or "difference"? Either word could have entirely different meanings.

 

[MattKing]

Reference.
To a particular early member of APUG, who made spectacular use of the early ability to edit any post, at any time.
I'm not sure that any of her posts edited that way survive.

 

[Down Under]

If anyone is still interested in this issue, I have noticed that another web site has addressed much the same issue as has been debated in this thread. The link:

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/deleting-a-post.5496270/

I was particularly interested in the comments of one of the moderators, see #6.Also noted interesting viewpoints from many parties on all sides of the discussion.

Posted "without prejudice as food for thought, without further comment from me as I have surely said enough on the matter already.