Some questions about buying my first film scanner on a budget

[Minolta93]

Hi everyone. I was recently gifted an eBay gift card, and I've been wanting to start developing my own film at some point.

It seemed to me that since I know I will not be able to have my own darkroom/enlarger any time soon, and since the local lab doesn't seem to just do scans, that if I develop my own film, I will need a film scanner for the time being. So I've decided that the first thing I get as far as "developing" equipment should be a scanner, since I'll need one when I start developing, and right now, it means I can scan all my negatives from the lab in a much higher resolution.

The thing is I'm trying to spend as little as possible. I thought I'd ask a few questions here just to make sure I'm not making any big mistakes.

1. I'm mainly considering the PrimeFilm 1800U model - they seem to go for about $30 used on eBay. They're "only" 1800DPI, but this will still give a much higher resolution scan than the lab does. More than enough to share on the Web for sure. So, is this a decent model for my use? From what I've seen online, it may be, but there's limited information.

2. I am also considering perhaps a PrimeFilm 3600U or 3650U, which have a scanning resolution of 3600DPI, and they seem to go for $40, which to me seems like it may be a better deal than the 1800U. Same thing here - are these decent scanners? I am only planning to scan 35mm for the time being, so if the scanner can only do 35mm that's okay. If I ever get into medium format or something then I would assume I'd have the money to get a better scanner anyway.

3. Is Digital ICE worth it? I know it can be helpful but I plan to clean my negatives with an antistatic cloth, and I do have Darktable on one of my computers at home.

4. Can Darktable software and the Negadoctor plugin be used in place of Digital ICE? If they can, then I think maybe I don't need to spring for a scanner with it.

If anyone can give me some pointers I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

 

[shutterfinger]

You did not state what format(s) you plan to scan. Its hard to recommend a scanner without knowing that.
The DPI of a scanner has two values, Optical limit and Max limit. The Optical limit is the maximum that the light source, mirrors, lens, and sensor will provide; the Max limit is the limit with software interpolation. Scan at the Optical limit for the maximum resolution from the negative.
The other spec to look for is the Dmax, the maximum difference between light and dark that the scanner can distinguish. If the Dmax is not stated its likely 2 or less, the best scanners are 4.
I'm not a fan of Prim Film scanners but they should give a good proof scan.

 

[Minolta93]

You did not state what format(s) you plan to scan. Its hard to recommend a scanner without knowing that.
The DPI of a scanner has two values, Optical limit and Max limit. The Optical limit is the maximum that the light source, mirrors, lens, and sensor will provide; the Max limit is the limit with software interpolation. Scan at the Optical limit for the maximum resolution from the negative.
The other spec to look for is the Dmax, the maximum difference between light and dark that the scanner can distinguish. If the Dmax is not stated its likely 2 or less, the best scanners are 4.
I'm not a fan of Prim Film scanners but they should give a good proof scan.

I did mention 35mm, should have put it up at the top though.

I am only planning to scan 35mm for the time being

As far as I know with what I've been able to see online, which is admittedly limited, these Primefilm scanners do indeed have an optical DPI of 1800, I don't believe it's an interpolated resolution, so that seems about right for the price. Or, for a little more, 3600DPI which also appears to be the optical resolution, though frankly since I can't seem to find too much about them, at least so far, that may not be true.

I actually don't know too much about Dmax, I'll try to read up on it a little more. I'm sure these cheap primefilm scanners aren't all that great, but on a small budget (yes, I know, film isn't necessarily the best low-budget hobby...) it sure seems a lot better than some of those new scanners they're putting out for the low range.

So I'll try to find some documents online and I'll check out the Dmax on models I'm looking at, and try to verify if the DPI specs I've found are indeed the optical resolution. thanks for the input.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Epson has a special on a refurbished V600 scanner for $140. It normally is sold new for $225. The refurbished unit comes with a warranty of one year. I've used my V600 for 10 years for both 35mm and medium format. I realize this price is more than you wanted to spend. But it is a good option if you can swing the money. You can see some of the results I got on my Flickr page, see link below. Good luck.
https://epson.com/Clearance-Center/...00-Photo-Scanner---Refurbished/p/B11B198011-N

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Just to clarify, I've upgraded to a more expensive V850 because I now shoot 4x5. In order not to confuse you with which scanner's film are on my Flickr site, here are the direct links that show just 35mm with the V600.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums/72157626911395064
https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums/72157627032961729
https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums/72157625526207614

 

[Wallendo]

I would avoid going too low. If you get the cheapest scanner now, you will likely end up rescanning your images lately,

For 35mm, look for a used Minolta scan III or similar used Nikon or Canon scanner (just make sure the scanner uses USB). For a little more, you can get a used Plustek 7100.

I used an Epson V600 in the past and was happy with it at the time, but now I can easily distinguish differences when compared with later Plustek scans (which are much sharper).

I don't have any experience withe the PrimeFilm 1800U, but my experience with sub $100 scanners has been poor.

 

[shutterfinger]

I did mention 35mm, should have put it up at the top though.

You made a run around reference by saying that if the scanner only did 35mm that's OK.
Now for the important stuff.
Go to https://www.scanace.com/sd.php click on scanners tab, Support and Download in the drop down, then Driver firmware, film scanners, then the model in the boxes that result.
1800u/i Windows XP/Vista nothing newer.
3600u Windows XP/Vista nothing newer. No Mac support on either after 10.6.8
Plustek 7100 not found. 7200 up to Windows 7.
Plustek 7600 Windows 10 32 and 64 bit versions but Silverfast 6 does not run on Windows 10, Mac 10.15.
Vuescan https://www.hamrick.com/ is an option for older scanners standard edition $50, Pro edition $100. Check their driver list https://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/supported-scanners.html to see if the scanner you want is supported or you'll get a desk paper weight or a e waste candidate for your $30 to $40.

 

[Les Sarile]

Keep on the lookout for great prices - even free, on local CL listings. I've picked up complete scanners like the Epson 4990 and an HP S20XI for the cost of driving to get them. I picked up a Coolscan V for less then $200 and all are working perfectly. No doubt some patience may be needed!

 

[Froeschli]

I still use my epson 3200. had to fudge the driver a bit to run with windows 8/10, but it works and is a workhorse. Just saw a 4990 for $30 and was tempted though (would save me taking it apart to clean the inside of the glass).
Anyhow. Just saying you don't need the newest or fanciest to get a decent working machine. Just depends how much work you are willing to invest.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Pay now or pay later.

 

[Buzz-01]

I have the Primefilm 1800i here on my desk, bought it at a thrift shop for around $5 a while back. Never got it to work with Windows 7 or 10.
Mainly bought it to make a stand for DSLR scanning 35mm negatives from it, as I already read that the reviews weren't great.
I do recommend to spend a little more and get a decent scanner, even an entry-level Epson scanner with film option will be lots better!
For example the V370 Photo or anything similar (I still use the V330 Photo and it works great for 35mm) will give you decent results but I tink the 3xx scanners are limited to 35mm only. To me that's no issue at all, but something you should be aware of.

 

[Ariston]

Hmmm... I never heard of Plustek. I have a v550 that does pretty well, but its limit really is 35mm. It just doesn't seem to have the resolution to pull out all the detail in the smaller format. It's not bad, just not great. For MF and LF it works great.

 

[Auer]

I have no issues with my Epson V600, I do about 2 rolls of 135 a week.
Epson Scan works well enough, ICE is handy for some Color negs. I do small adjustments if needed in Lightroom.

It's slow of course, and has no adjustments for focusing (Height of Negatives)
Some films need a bit of overnight flattening to mitigate Newton Rings (or get ANR glass to fit the holders)

Thes are all with the V600:
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmRHFmvA

 

[Minolta93]

I just recently was given a medium format camera, and so it seems that medium format may be in my future, which would rule out 35mm for me anyway! I didn't plan to get in to medium format any time soon, but having a medium format camera isn't such a bad problem to have.

You made a run around reference by saying that if the scanner only did 35mm that's OK.
Now for the important stuff.
Go to https://www.scanace.com/sd.php click on scanners tab, Support and Download in the drop down, then Driver firmware, film scanners, then the model in the boxes that result.
1800u/i Windows XP/Vista nothing newer.
3600u Windows XP/Vista nothing newer. No Mac support on either after 10.6.8
Plustek 7100 not found. 7200 up to Windows 7.
Plustek 7600 Windows 10 32 and 64 bit versions but Silverfast 6 does not run on Windows 10, Mac 10.15.
Vuescan https://www.hamrick.com/ is an option for older scanners standard edition $50, Pro edition $100. Check their driver list https://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/supported-scanners.html to see if the scanner you want is supported or you'll get a desk paper weight or a e waste candidate for your $30 to $40.

I should have no problem regarding operating system compatibility. I don't need Mac support of course, and if I can plug in a scanner to my main machine (Windows 7) that would be totally fine, I also have some XP machines as well. Also, I have had success with passing through external devices to a virtual machine before, so I may be able to do the same with a scanner. I also have some computers that I know should run Windows 98 just fine. Potentially I could use a scanner meant to connect to an MS-DOS computer. I will keep the hamrick website bookmarked though, thanks.

Based on the advice I've gotten, and combined with the fact that I may soon be shooting MF, I think my best option will be to just stay on the lookout for a flatbed scanner. Looks like some of the Epson models are highly recommended, hopefully I'll be able to get a decent deal on one.

 

[cptrios]

I just noticed this thread - I happen to own a Pacific Image 3650U, actually. My first comment would be an agreement with Wallendo: go cheap now, and you'll end up wanting to upgrade later and rescan everything.

My 3650u is totally fine, if slow, for the price: $17 plus a bit of shipping. For the record, it works perfectly well with Vuescan on Windows 10! If you just want to scan a few frames here and there, it's really not a bad 'investment.' Fiddly, though, and, like I said, slow. Unfortunately, mine has developed some banding issues over the last few months, so I wound up ordering a Plustek anyway. But if you want, ask any questions about it you've got!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

My students have Epson V600 scanners. We've been using them for many years on a daily basis. Excellent scanners that can do up to 120.

 

[Minolta93]

Hello.

Actually, I already picked up an Epson Perfection 4870 scanner! I saw it for only $20 on my local Craigslist, and I made the snap decision to buy it for less than I figured I'd pay for a dedicated 35mm scanner anyway. I'm a bit afraid I made the wrong choice, but I believe Photo Engineer (may he rest in peace) mentioned on this site that he had a 4870 as well. Well, if it's good enough for him, surely, it'll be good enough for me.

I have already tested it out--it scans normally just fine, but it is missing the film holders, and it looks like they're over $100 on eBay(!). So that is out of the question. I used Epson Scan to scan some negatives and got mostly poor results, but at least it does work. Sort of. I had no issues connecting it to my other computer running XP sp3, but it does appear that the colors are pretty poor, and it isn't very sharp at all.

Compared to the basic lab scans, it looks quite terrible, but it does have a much higher resolution, which of course doesn't matter as it isn't properly sharp. I made a small film holder from cardboard and used that, and I also tried scanning with the film lying directly on the glass bed.

I think that I'll be able to get decent scans from this scanner if I can figure some things out. Really, there are only 2 problems that only occur when scanning transparencies: poor colors, and poor sharpness.

For the colors, I'm not quite sure what to do. I tried the vuescan trial, but it didn't look too great. Maybe there are some settings I ought to play with. I also tried using Epson Scan, and then making corrections using Darktable and the Negadoctor tools, but the colors were still quite poor.

As for the sharpness, I assume if I had a proper film holder, I'd be alright. I'm considering 3d printing a holder, but I think I'd want to somehow find the dimensions it ought to be first--really just the distance from the film to the bed, and then design around that.

 

[sapearl]

My students have Epson V600 scanners. We've been using them for many years on a daily basis. Excellent scanners that can do up to 120.

Hello Andrew - that's good to hear your students are pleased with Epson V600 Scanners.

For a while I've been using a Nikon Coolscan V (LS-50) for decades of 35mm negs but I want something of "similar" quality for many years of medium format negatives. I've very successfully used the my 21 year old Epson Perfection 1200 PHOTO for medium format frames, but I now want something more up to date. I've been considering the V850 which is pretty much the big brother of your workhorses but don't know much about the ease of negative handling. Things were quite clunky on my old scanner but I made it work. Any comments would be appreciated - thanks!

 

[sapearl]

I just recently was given a medium format camera, and so it seems that medium format may be in my future, which would rule out 35mm for me anyway! I didn't plan to get in to medium format any time soon, but having a medium format camera isn't such a bad problem to have.



I should have no problem regarding operating system compatibility. I don't need Mac support of course, and if I can plug in a scanner to my main machine (Windows 7) that would be totally fine, I also have some XP machines as well. Also, I have had success with passing through external devices to a virtual machine before, so I may be able to do the same with a scanner. I also have some computers that I know should run Windows 98 just fine. Potentially I could use a scanner meant to connect to an MS-DOS computer. I will keep the hamrick website bookmarked though, thanks.

Based on the advice I've gotten, and combined with the fact that I may soon be shooting MF, I think my best option will be to just stay on the lookout for a flatbed scanner. Looks like some of the Epson models are highly recommended, hopefully I'll be able to get a decent deal on one.

Congrats on getting a medium format camera! I'm curious, which one did you receive?
I can't say enough good things about the Hamrick/Vuescan s/w, and I'm not shilling for him . I have a 22 year old Epson Perfection 1200PHOTO scanner which dropped dead the moment I upgraded to Windows 7: no drivers, recognition, whatever. Then I heard about Vuescan, paid a one-time fee and the old flatbed rose from the ashes! Not only that but it seemed to run a little faster. About a year ago a friend gave me his old Nikon Coolscan V (LS-50) scanner and the moment I powered it up, Vuescan immediately recognized it. I don't believe the old Nikon s/w will work with it - many say it is excellent - but I've found enough controls, sliders and options in Hamrick's s/w to do the trick. I then process in Photo Shop anyway and "develop" to taste. I am extremely happy with the results and output to 13"x19" on an Epson printer is excellent.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Hello Andrew - that's good to hear your students are pleased with Epson V600 Scanners.

For a while I've been using a Nikon Coolscan V (LS-50) for decades of 35mm negs but I want something of "similar" quality for many years of medium format negatives. I've very successfully used the my 21 year old Epson Perfection 1200 PHOTO for medium format frames, but I now want something more up to date. I've been considering the V850 which is pretty much the big brother of your workhorses but don't know much about the ease of negative handling. Things were quite clunky on my old scanner but I made it work. Any comments would be appreciated - thanks!

I've been using the 750V for several years now, for scanning formats up to 8x10. I've even scanned my 14x17's in sections. Great scanner.

 

[Minolta93]

Congrats on getting a medium format camera! I'm curious, which one did you receive?
I can't say enough good things about the Hamrick/Vuescan s/w, and I'm not shilling for him . I have a 22 year old Epson Perfection 1200PHOTO scanner which dropped dead the moment I upgraded to Windows 7: no drivers, recognition, whatever. Then I heard about Vuescan, paid a one-time fee and the old flatbed rose from the ashes! Not only that but it seemed to run a little faster. About a year ago a friend gave me his old Nikon Coolscan V (LS-50) scanner and the moment I powered it up, Vuescan immediately recognized it. I don't believe the old Nikon s/w will work with it - many say it is excellent - but I've found enough controls, sliders and options in Hamrick's s/w to do the trick. I then process in Photo Shop anyway and "develop" to taste. I am extremely happy with the results and output to 13"x19" on an Epson printer is excellent.

Thanks! I actually got about a dozen cameras recently, from a friend who knew someone who was getting rid of his grandfather's massive collection.

The one medium format camera that I got is a Zeiss Ikonta 6x6. It's got a neat flip-out mechanism with the lens on a bellows. It seems to be in great condition and it cleaned up well. The only thing wrong with it is that when you take a picture, it seems that the shutter does not "click" back into place. For this camera, to hit the shutter release, the shutter must of course be cocked, and you also have to turn the film wind knob until it clicks. I suppose for a typical 6x6 frame you'd turn the knob, it'll click, and you continue turning until you've lined up the next frame.

But, sometimes you fire the shutter, and you turn the knob, but nothing clicks into place, and you won't be able to shoot the next picture. After an arbitrary amount of time I'll hear a faint click from inside the camera, and then if I turn the knob a bit more it'll click into place and then I can shoot again. Sometimes everything works fine, but sometimes it takes a while for whatever it is in there to click into place, and when it does click into place at the same time the shutter is fired, you can't really tell over the noise of the shutter itself. So what this all means is, I'll probably end up wasting quite a bit of film, it's quite a strange problem! Nevertheless, I plan on putting it to some use soon, but like I said I got plenty of other cameras to mess around with first.

As for Vuescan, I've only heard good things. However being on my stingy budget--I did get the scanner for $20, after all--I may wait on Vuescan. I've actually gotten Epson Scan working decently well, at least well enough that I find my own scans to be an acceptable alternative to my local lab for sharing on the Web or perhaps making small prints, postcard-size. Luckily for me, I have an older Thinkpad running windows XP that I actually use quite often, and I've kept it in good shape. In fact, I use it to run my 3d printer. Setting up Epson Scan on XP was a breeze. I've mounted the negs to a piece of normal photo glass, and the only thing I need to iron out now is using shims to raise the glass just right for the best focus. Here's a scan I've gotten, I included the sprocket area just to see how that'd look. I'm quite happy with it so far, but the image could do with a bit more sharpness.

How much post-work do you do in photoshop? Thus far I've just used a program called Darktable to make some minor tweaks. crop, contrast, brightness, saturation, white balance, sharpen. stuff like that.

 

[sapearl]

Hi Minolta - I'll reply at length when I have a bit more time but wanted to respond about my post work in Photo Shop. I am not an expert but I pretty much live in it on a daily basis having an old standalone copy of CS5 I bought years ago. I basically use those features I know.

Once I have a scanned image I'll move it into PS and give it a general EXPOSURE adjustment or just jump straight to levels. All of this doesn't happen though until I give a long hard look at the image, try to do an "artistic" appraisal and decide what I want the end result to be. Is it just a record, documentary shot? Or am I trying to be really creative? This is just my own preference - some folks like doing a portion of the exposure adjustments in the scanning s/w. So after I make those general adjustments I'll start tweaking areas of the image. I will do this with exposure adjustment layers - perhaps brightening an area with the levels slider, darkening another portion.....you get the idea.

Once everything is all done, I may or may not apply some sharpening to all, or just a portion of the image. Again, it's a creative decision - what parts of the image I am trying to emphasize and which areas are just part of the "supporting cast."

 

[Minolta93]

Hi Minolta - I'll reply at length when I have a bit more time but wanted to respond about my post work in Photo Shop. I am not an expert but I pretty much live in it on a daily basis having an old standalone copy of CS5 I bought years ago. I basically use those features I know.

Once I have a scanned image I'll move it into PS and give it a general EXPOSURE adjustment or just jump straight to levels. All of this doesn't happen though until I give a long hard look at the image, try to do an "artistic" appraisal and decide what I want the end result to be. Is it just a record, documentary shot? Or am I trying to be really creative? This is just my own preference - some folks like doing a portion of the exposure adjustments in the scanning s/w. So after I make those general adjustments I'll start tweaking areas of the image. I will do this with exposure adjustment layers - perhaps brightening an area with the levels slider, darkening another portion.....you get the idea.

Once everything is all done, I may or may not apply some sharpening to all, or just a portion of the image. Again, it's a creative decision - what parts of the image I am trying to emphasize and which areas are just part of the "supporting cast."

Thanks for the insight. I'm new to "levels" and I have yet to fully understand it all, or at least how to use them properly.

I noticed your account joined today. Welcome!

 

[sapearl]

Thanks for the insight. I'm new to "levels" and I have yet to fully understand it all, or at least how to use them properly.

I noticed your account joined today. Welcome!

Thanks for the welcome - yes, today is the first day on the forum. I'm looking for some specific information and I found out a long time ago with forums that the best way to get solid help is to offer some in return.

It took me a little while to get the hang of levels myself but when I did it opened up a whole new world of processing. Before that any changes I'd make to an image in post affected everything. That wasn't good. Like a fine art painting, you want to emphasize certain aspects of the image and create a better point of view for the observer. That will result in greater impact and a more memorable image.

Your Zeiss Ikonta 6x6 sounds like a wonderful little machine and I'm guessing the optics should be pretty good with that Zeiss lens. That would have a type of compur shutter (leaf - in the lens) and judging by the uneven performance it likely needs a CLA: Clean, Lubricate, Adjust. I'd periodically have that done on my Hasselblad lenses but it's not cheap. There is probably some dirt build-up, lack of necessary lube, and a spring or two may even be worn. There are still camera repair places around but something like that would probably start at $85+. One strategy would be for you to "exercise" all the shutter speeds. Set each one, cock and release and repeat. Do this a lot. At best that could loosen things up. At worst you'll snap a spring or jam a component rendering it useless. Right now it sounds like you have some really long exposures when you don't expect them. That camera is at least 60 years old....to start. Still, it will be fun to play with.

 

[Minolta93]

Thanks for the welcome - yes, today is the first day on the forum. I'm looking for some specific information and I found out a long time ago with forums that the best way to get solid help is to offer some in return.

Certainly is, although I find myself getting more help than I give. I'll chalk it up to me not being experienced.

It took me a little while to get the hang of levels myself

I can understand that--when I have a bit more free time, I'll try to read up on it and do some experimenting.

Your Zeiss Ikonta 6x6 sounds like a wonderful little machine and I'm guessing the optics should be pretty good with that Zeiss lens. That would have a type of compur shutter (leaf - in the lens) and judging by the uneven performance it likely needs a CLA: Clean, Lubricate, Adjust. I'd periodically have that done on my Hasselblad lenses but it's not cheap. There is probably some dirt build-up, lack of necessary lube, and a spring or two may even be worn. There are still camera repair places around but something like that would probably start at $85+. One strategy would be for you to "exercise" all the shutter speeds. Set each one, cock and release and repeat. Do this a lot. At best that could loosen things up. At worst you'll snap a spring or jam a component rendering it useless. Right now it sounds like you have some really long exposures when you don't expect them. That camera is at least 60 years old....to start. Still, it will be fun to play with.

Oh yeah, it's a nice little camera apart from that quirk. Actually, the shutter itself works fine, and opens and closes when it needs to, as far as I can tell. It's just some reset mechanism that's the problem, and I have no idea where in the camera it is, haha. It's in quite good condition for it's age. I even have a Kodak Retina in that box from 1939, 3rd Reich Germany if I'm correct in what I read based on the serial number.

I have been playing with the shutter on the 6x6, and it seems to have loosened up a little bit. Not sure I'm ready to pony up the cash to take it to a repair guy. I'd like to do the repairs myself as I'd consider myself handy to some extent. I hear the world is in a shortage of people who can fix cameras, so maybe learning how to do some basic stuff is worth a try.