Some newcomer 4x5 questions for Graphic camera and C-41 sheet film

Hello everyone. I have landed a couple of wedding photography jobs over the coming year and am in search of some advice about this camera I wanted to use. In the past I have just used a 6x6cm TLR for everything in weddings. I've been contemplating something better for the large group and staged pictures. My one photographer friend has an old graphic. It's either a crown or a speed, whichever one doesn't have a shutter, and I really want to use this for the group shots I"m going to be doing. Only problem is it doesn't have a lens and I have no idea where to get C-41 sheet film processed. I will probably take about 50-80 shots with sheet film and then shoot the rest with medium format. What lens would you folks recommend for doing portraits and group shots in LF? I don't mind switching lenses necessarily, but one lens would be preferable, standard field of view. If you could recommend a good, sharp, affordable lens that I could purchase, I'd appreciate it. Lens will be used with color, so lenses taht tend to discolor with time are no good. Then there's the question of where to get the film processed. I have no problem doing RA-4 by hand. I have nord roll easels, and a one hour photo lab set up to run C-41 at the moment, but I have no equipment to do 4x5. Is there any good, affordable lab for C-41 in the Cleveland area? I'm not averse to processing the stuff myself, but it has to be affordable. Is there a reliable way to do it in trays or drums? I just want a method where there isn't a huge potential for getting streaks on the film. I've had this problem with RA-4 and drums, which is why I stopped using them and went back to trays. Thanks for your help everyone!

Regards.

~Karl Borowski

Good Afternoon, Karl,

I have almost zero experience shooting weddings (just two in B & W for family members), but I understand that very few wedding photos are ever printed larger than 8 x 10. At that size, it's likely that your TLR will nearly equal the quality of 4 x 5 (and I AM partial to 4 x 5 for a lot of my own shooting) with much less hassle. If you don't have a lot of hands-on with a Graphic, on-the-job training at a wedding would probably not be a good idea.

Konical

I would second the opinion that it would not be a good idea to take a camera that you are not totally familiar with to shoot a wedding. The 6x6cm format has long been used for wedding photography and is well suited for the job.

Aside from that I wonder if you have considered the costs involved in shooting 80 4x5" sheets of color film? In Tucson the developing would run about $1.70 per sheet and that does not include any form of contact sheet or printing which would add a fair amount to the costs even before any final prints. And the sheet film itself is not cheap either. Nor is this a situation in my opinion where you can use anything but new fresh film.
Perhaps, if you work with the camera enough before the event you could shoot some group shots or full length bride and groom shots but it seems to me that you would complicating the situation more than is needed.

I am shooting a wedding in April and I may shoot a few formal shots of the bride and groom prior to the wedding in 4x5 . But I own and use the equiptment on a fairly regular basis and know what to expect when using it. The wedding ceremony and attendant shots will be done with a Mamiya 6x4.5. Another camera that is very wedding friendly. I shot a family reunion type of thing last year with equiptment that I was not completely familiar with and it was a near thing. It could have been a disaster and was not a situation where I could re-shoot anything. Save yourself a lot of grief and go with what you know.

I agree with previous postings. As a very occasional wedding photographer (really friends only), I would say that using 4x5" would get over the hassle of having to change film rolls but would bring many problems of its own. To take 80 shots you would of course need at least 40 double film holders, there is the alternative of Readiloads but I wouldn't trust myself not to tear these when handling them under pressure and if the day of the wedding turned out to be damp or rainy, you could be in big trouble. Another expense would be a lens for the Graphic - for group shots you'd need a pretty good 75 or 90 mm wideangle that can definitely deliver edge-to-edge sharpness and this would probably run $350 or more. I sense from your posting that you do not feel you can pass the extra cost of 4x5" equipment and film on to your client, so like others would recommend you stick with rollfilm.

Regards,

David

I've been shooting weddings since... well, for a long time. Anyway, I've done a few with a Crown Graphic and let me assure you, unless you're prepared to quadruple your price (and your client REALLY wants it and is willing to pay a premium), save yourself the trouble. As has been said here before, not too many album prints wind up larger than 8X10 (or 10X10 for us square format shooters). 4X5 is overkill.

Now I DO bring a large format camera with me to wedding jobs, and I even use it IF I have the time. My format of choice for those is 5X7 and I tend to only use it for B&G stuff without the rest of the wedding party around. You can't compare a 20X30 on-canvas print from a 5X7 (or 4X5) to one shot 6X6, but it does require time.

One case where it would be cool to make an exception and use a Crown or Speed would be if the affair had a 1930's or 40's vintage theme and everyone was dressed in period clothing. I'd do that kind of gig in a heartbeat with a 4X5 Crown, but I'd shoot Tri-X, not color neg.

With respect folks, I'm only talking about doing group shots here. I'll have an assistant, and I have all the holders I could ever need, over 100. I have C-41 chemicals coming out the ass, so I can process the stuff myself. Further the gentleman whose studio I work out of started out with 4x5 and he thinks what I propose is totally feasible. So I buy one 50x box of 4x5, shoot group shots with it (while an assistant simultaneously takes backups), then I slap it in the trunk and shoot the candids with a 6x6. What the hell is so unreasonable about that? I'm not talking about shooting sports shots in a hurry on a sideline with flashbulbs with the thing (which, by the way, was done until the late 50s). So could I please get some advice? I was pulling together all the equipment for the camera today and I now know that it is a Crown Graphic, not a speed.

Regards.

~Karl Borowski

Well it seems your mind is made up so I say just go ahead and shoot as planned and let us all know how you made out. For a lens try a 135 and back up. Don't forget DOF and to compensate for bellows extension! And if you need to flash because the light sucks get some big 2K watt lights. Also don't forget a loupe and darkcloth because most screens in Graphics suck and you'll never see your focus when stopping down the lens. Btw, tightened down the head real good so you don't move the camera when you insert the film holders, and make sure the camera doesn't have any light leaks; Most important!

Karl,

You asked a question, and it sounds like you didn't get the answer you wanted, I shoot a lot of weddings, and while feasible, I don't consider it easy or desireable, but as long as you have the processing capibilities, then go for it, if your comfortable, there is no reason not to, myself, if I were going to do it, would use a 135mm, which is what the press photographers of the past used, of course as the 4x5 were one of the standards back then, that is why they used it, most of my wedding work over the years have been done with Medium Format Gear, but I have done a couple of shoots with a 4x5 press camera.

I guess it really comes down to what floats your boat, if you want to do it on 4x5, then go for it. If you have the chemical setup, you will have to get the tubes to do the developing in, and I would suggest doing some heavy testing to make sure your comfortable with the process before the clients step before the camera.

One thing, put a piece of tape on the back of the camera, with the note:

"Pull the Dark Slide" in big bold letters, I only say this based on experiance!

LOL

Good Luck, have fun..

Dave

By the way, are these your first jobs on weddings?

Just curious.

Dave

Well EXCUUUUUUUUUUUUSE ME..............

Karl, based on your last post it sounds like you have it handled. However if you look at how your first post is phrased it gave the impression that you were a newby and didn't know which end of the 4x5 to point at the subject. Under that impression I gave you my opinion of the proposed shoot. Being able to process your own C-41 certainly changes things concerning the economics of the shoot. And having an assistant goes a long way to lessening the hassle of handling that much sheet film. If you can find a working lens for the right price then you are good to go.

However I still don't think there is much point in the exercise and personally I don't think a paying job is the place to try out a camera that is new to you as well as a style of shooting that is totally different than what you are used to doing. But the best of luck with it in any case.

FilmIs4Ever said:

What the hell is so unreasonable about that?

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Karl, there's really nothing unreasonable about using your Graphic - the fact that you have over 100 holders (which you didn't say before) probably pushes the project over the line into the zone of feasibility, having an assistant will be a big plus to juggle the holders, and using 4x5" does mean that your assistant can't mis-thread a roll of film into a magazine. However, if it was me, I'd want to have a 75 mm wideangle (Super Angulon, etc.) plus a 180 or 210 lens (Symmar, Symmar-S) to take individuals and the happy pair. I wouldn't use older lenses although these can give interesting image quality because I might have to shoot against the light (with flash fill) and I would want to feel the lenses were giving me a flat field and full edge-to-edge coverage at no smaller than f16, preferably with the option of using only f11 if necessary. Furthermore, to cope with the need to focus the f8 wideangle under possibly poor lighting conditions, I would want to have a Beattie Intenscreen in my Graphic to give a bright focusing image. For occasions when I ran out of light (which could be often) I would want a hammerhead flash with a guide number of 60 (ISO 100 metric) - in Europe, this would almost automatically mean Metz. I have all this gear already - if I didn't, I'd buy it all well before the wedding, also buy or borrow a Polaroid 545i holder, and shoot at least a dozen test shots with both lenses, the flash, front and back lighting to check the gear out and get practise with handling, Finally, I'd double-check my costing to make sure what I was doing made economic sense. Marketing yourself as the guy who uses a Graphic for weddings could be a smart move if you can find answers to all of the above.

How's that for practical advice?

Regards,

David

I've been contemplating something better for the large group and staged pictures. My one photographer friend has an old graphic. It's either a crown or a speed, whichever one doesn't have a shutter, …

As you now know, it’s the Speed Graphic that has the focal plane shutter. Since you anticipate using a Crown Graphic, the lens will have to be mounted in a shutter.

I really want to use this for the group shots I"m going to be doing. Only problem is it doesn't have a lens….What lens would you folks recommend for doing portraits and group shots in LF? I don't mind switching lenses necessarily, but one lens would be preferable, standard field of view.

What lens focal length is the rangefinder on the camera you intend to use set up for? The most commonly used focal length was 135mm, slightly wider than the normal 150mm, but you will want the rangefinder cam to match the lens you will be using.

If you could recommend a good, sharp, affordable lens that I could purchase, I'd appreciate it. Lens will be used with color, so lenses taht tend to discolor with time are no good.

I have some of the older lenses commonly used with the Graphics in those focal lengths. The only one I would recommend, provided it matches the rangefinder cam, would be the 135mm, f4.7 Schneider Xenar. They are common, not expensive, but you will need to find one in a working shutter with a usable flash synch.

It would be useful to know why you particularly want to use this camera. Is it that you want something with a rectangular format with a ratio matching 8x10 or do you just want the novelty/nostalgia of a period piece press camera?

Do back up with the roll camera. LF, tho not difficult, opens the possibility of many errors.

LF lenses from the 60`s will not compete with modern roll film reguarless of neg size. The colors are dull and flat.

I do 4x5 C 41 in a jobo expert drum. Most commercial places use dip and dunk and get clip marks and stretch the neg unevenly. You will not like their work.

If you use a normal lens for roll film, a 150 is close. You will be working at 16 or 22 so get pleanty of light. Practice first. You don`t even need film for the first round. Then do some black and white and see what the errors are. Do two of everything and process separately or send out separately.

I`m really with the others, don`t do it. Not worth the trouble. Good lighting is far more important than neg size. Vivitar 383`s don`t cut it. Norman portables for candids and umbrellas or soft boxes for the formals.

If you use a Crown Graphic at all for this wedding, I would highly recommend that you couple whatever lens(es) you are using to the proper infinity stops and forget trying to fine focus each and every shot. Frame the shots with the "pop-up sports finder". Every wedding party has its share of blinkers, stinkers, and drunks whose sole purpose in life is to f#@k up as many wedding pictures as they possibly can! ( ) When these goof-balls see a 4x5 camera, focusing-cloth and a tripod, they WILL ascend to thier highest levels of asinine glory!

Set up your 4x5 kit well before the wedding and practice, practice, practice!
I know their are quite few folks here who can tell you how to set up that camera's infinity stops... and more.

I do admire your courage and determination in this undertaking and hope that you keep us posted.

FilmIs4Ever said:

My one photographer friend has an old graphic. It's either a crown or a speed, whichever one doesn't have a shutter, and I really want to use this for the group shots I"m going to be doing. Only problem is it doesn't have a lens and I have no idea where to get C-41 sheet film processed. I will probably take about 50-80 shots with sheet film and then shoot the rest with medium format. What lens would you folks recommend for doing portraits and group shots in LF?

~Karl Borowski

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Well... I would advise against doing 50-80 LF group / portrait shots the first (couple) of times. Do 10 most important ones with the LF doubled by the TLR. If it turns out ok, you can expand the next time, but right now you seem to be jumping into too deep and cold water.

For the lens, get a good quality fast 150mm.

Ronald Moravec said:

LF lenses from the 60`s will not compete with modern roll film reguarless of neg size. The colors are dull and flat.

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Really disagree here. My 4x5" LF lenses are a mixture of new (65, 90 and 135 Nikkors), nearly new (210 f6.1 Xenar) and older (150 Xenar, 150 Symmar, 360 Tele-Xenar). The Tele-Xenar is the oldest and I am constantly surprised how contrasty and flare-free the images are with this lens. I use Kodak Portra 160 VC, a high-saturation film, and get all the contrast I want.

Another point - why automatically shoot pictures of individuals or couples at f22? You don't need depth of field - in fact, using a shallow depth of field coudl be a useful way of minimising distracting backgrounds.