Some more Crown Graphic questions

trondsi · Jul 18, 2018

Dan Fromm said:
Trondsi, go here http://www.largeformatphotography.i...to-look-for-information-on-LF-(mainly)-lenses for links to manufacturers' catalogs and other useful information. The catalogs show lens cross-sections.

Plasmat types are roughly symmetrical, each cell has three elements. From the outside in, a cemented doublet (two elements), an air space, and a singlet (the third element). For some reason we tend to refer to Fujinon Ws as plasmats even though some (six elements in six groups) aren't. The typical LF plasmat is f/5.6 or slower.

The Xenotar you're thinking of is a five element double Gauss type. It is a variant of the six element double Gauss type, sometimes called planar type. Roughly symmetrical, each cell has three elements. From the outside in, a single, an air space, and a cemented doublet. Five element double Gauss types (Xenotars, some Zeiss Oberkochen Planars) replace one of the cemented doublets with a singlet. All are good lenses, but with less coverage than the typical plasmat of the same focal length. Six element double Gauss types, starting with the TTH Opic and Dallmeyer Super Six are (f/2.0 and f/1.9 respectively) are faster than plasmats. Five elementers are typically f/2.8.

I take it you're dreaming and haven't shopped yet. 135/2.8 Xenotars and Planars are much more expensive than 135/5.6 plasmat types.

That is correct. I'm a little low on cash right now, but I will be looking for a new lens for the Crown Graphic in the near future. Any specific recommendations for plasmat-type lenses?

BradS · Jul 18, 2018

trondsi said:
That is correct. I'm a little low on cash right now, but I will be looking for a new lens for the Crown Graphic in the near future. Any specific recommendations for plasmat-type lenses?

Rodenstock Sironar-N, Schneider Symmar-S, Nikon Nikkor-W, Fuji Fujinon-W
....but none of these is going to be extraordinarily better than the Optar that you already have.

The Rodenstock APO Sironar-S is significantly better but, the price is also considerably more. The Schneider APO Symmar might be comparable to the Sironar-S but, I'm not sure that it is.

Dan Fromm · Jul 18, 2018

BradS said:
Rodenstock Sironar-N, Schneider Symmar-S, Nikon Nikkor-W, Fuji Fujinon-W
....but none of these is going to be extraordinarily better than the Optar that you already have.

The Rodenstock APO Sironar-S is significantly better but, the price is also considerably more. The Schneider APO Symmar might be comparable to the Sironar-S but, I'm not sure that it is.

At the same aperture, the plasmat types will have somewhat better image quality off-axis. The farther off-axis, the better.

Dan Fromm · Jul 18, 2018

trondsi said:
That is correct. I'm a little low on cash right now, but I will be looking for a new lens for the Crown Graphic in the near future. Any specific recommendations for plasmat-type lenses?

Sigh. Any plasmat type from, in alphabetical order, Fujinon, Nikon, Schneider and Rodenstock will be better than good enough. This includes the first generation convertible Symmar, which isn't quite as good as the successors. Read the catalogs. If I didn't give you the link to my list of links, please ask for it. Buy on condition, not reputation. I don't know why, but on eBay.com Fujinons usually sell for less than equivalent lenses from the rest of the big four.

I'm partial to Boyer lenses but can't recommend the Color Saphir or Saphir BX/Zircon for your application. Color Saphirs are hard to find and, apparently, no better than jes' plain Symmars. The Saphir BX/Zircons are better but have less coverage than the competition and shorter ones fit #1, not #0 shutters. For example, my 105/5.6 Saphir BX (same prescription as the Zircon) is fine on 2x3, not fine on 6x12.

BradS · Jul 18, 2018

Dan Fromm said:
At the same aperture, the plasmat types will have somewhat better image quality off-axis. The farther off-axis, the better.

yes, of course, but 'somewhat' does not equal 'extraordinary'.

Dan Fromm said:
..... the first generation convertible Symmar, which isn't quite as good as the successors.

It depends upon the criteria used to judge 'better'. I prefer the convertible Symmar (over the Symmar-S for example) for it's lower contrast and subtly less "plasticy" look. I prefer the newer version for the modern Copal shutter that they come with.

trondsi · Jul 19, 2018

Thanks for clarifying this folks! I think that lack of coverage is what has sometimes annoyed me with my current lens, so the plantar lenses sound very interesting.

Ian Grant · Jul 19, 2018

My experience using a 135mm f4.5 CZJ Tessar which is essentially the same design as the Optar is that best results are at f22, you need careful focussing to get the best DOF, sharpness is just about acceptable at the edges/corners at f16, and then there was the lack of coverage for movements. I found it a frustrating lens to use (I'd years of LF experience) and posted a wanted advert here for a modern Plasmat, I was offered and bought a 135mm f5.6 Caltar-S II (a re-badged Schneider Symmar S), the difference in optical quality and sharpness, ease of use as it has better coverage, means it's a lovely lens to use and gives great results but then so would similar modern plasmats from other companies as others have suggested.

It may be there's an issue with your Optar, perhaps someone had it apart to clean and an element isn't seated correctly, but even a good one won't be as sharp as a modern plasmat, you will see a difference.

Ian

Dan Fromm · Jul 19, 2018

trondsi said:
Thanks for clarifying this folks! I think that lack of coverage is what has sometimes annoyed me with my current lens, so the plantar lenses sound very interesting.

Plasmat, not planar. Fast double Gauss types have less coverage than the equivalent plasmat, cover little more than their focal lengths.

Planar, not plantar. Some warts are plantar. Photographic objectives rarely grow on a foot's sole.

EdSawyer · Jul 19, 2018

Nice explanation. Just a couple points: The 135 xenotar and planar are f/3.5 not 2.8. The 150 xenotar is 2.8. There is also the Komura 152mm which came in f/3.5 and f/2.8. And generally yes they are more expensive than a typical plasmat, but sometimes there are deals to be had with careful looking and an investment in time to hunt stuff down.

trondsi · Jul 19, 2018

Ouch. Sorry for the word salad . I had been stuck in traffic for four hours and wanted to respond before going to bed.

trondsi · Aug 5, 2018

Follow up question: I'm assuming that if I get another 135mm lens I don't need to do much adjustments to the range finder. Is adjusting the range finder for a different focal length an easy task? Can it be adjusted to, say 203mm?

BrianShaw · Aug 5, 2018

I suppose there’s a lot of “it depends” but I swapped out an Optar for a Symar-S and successfully kept using the same cam on a SuperGrPhic. I did not observe s significant difference.

shutterfinger · Aug 5, 2018

trondsi said:
Follow up question: I'm assuming that if I get another 135mm lens I don't need to do much adjustments to the range finder. Is adjusting the range finder for a different focal length an easy task? Can it be adjusted to, say 203mm?

I have read through all your post in this thread and nowhere do you state which rangefinder you have.
Lens are rarely their marked focal length, they are .1mm to 3mm either side of the nominal marked focal length on adverage.
Hugo Meyer side rangefinders are for one focal length and adjust for the variation of that focal length.
Kalart side rangefinders are adjustable for a verity of focal lengths from 101mm for 2x3 cameras to 165mm for 4x5 cameras.
Graphic top rangefinders use cams machined to the lens focal length.
With any rangefinder 2 lens of the same marked focal length that are .1mm to .2mm in actual focal length will focus correctly with the rangefinder up to the closest distance which will be off an inch or two.
Any 2 or more lens of the same marked focal length .5 to 1mm different in actual focal length will be in focus up to about 10 feet then the focus error will increase the closer the subject is.
Lens with more than 1mm difference in actual focal length will have focus errors starting around 15 feet subject distance.

A clean, smooth operating side rangefinder will adjust easily, a dirty, sticky, sluggish one will be a PITA.
There is no procedure for making new cams for Graphic top rangefinders on Pacemaker Graphic cameras.
http://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/kalart-adjustment.html
http://www.graflex.org/technical-information.html

trondsi · Aug 6, 2018

shutterfinger said:
I have read through all your post in this thread and nowhere do you state which rangefinder you have.
Lens are rarely their marked focal length, they are .1mm to 3mm either side of the nominal marked focal length on adverage.
Hugo Meyer side rangefinders are for one focal length and adjust for the variation of that focal length.
Kalart side rangefinders are adjustable for a verity of focal lengths from 101mm for 2x3 cameras to 165mm for 4x5 cameras.
Graphic top rangefinders use cams machined to the lens focal length.
With any rangefinder 2 lens of the same marked focal length that are .1mm to .2mm in actual focal length will focus correctly with the rangefinder up to the closest distance which will be off an inch or two.
Any 2 or more lens of the same marked focal length .5 to 1mm different in actual focal length will be in focus up to about 10 feet then the focus error will increase the closer the subject is.
Lens with more than 1mm difference in actual focal length will have focus errors starting around 15 feet subject distance.

A clean, smooth operating side rangefinder will adjust easily, a dirty, sticky, sluggish one will be a PITA.
There is no procedure for making new cams for Graphic top rangefinders on Pacemaker Graphic cameras.
http://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/kalart-adjustment.html
http://www.graflex.org/technical-information.html

Thanks for the info, Shutterfinger. I have a Kalart rangefinder mounted on the side of the camera.

Fotoguy20d · Aug 6, 2018

I'm partial to Nikkors but as had been said, an Optar that hasn't been messed with ui a good lens. I think the Nikkor 135 will fit in a Crown but just barely.

You might want to consider a 150 instead of the 135. You'll get just a bit more coverage. If you can tolerate a dimmer lens, a 150 G-claron is tiny (disclaimer, I have one for sale) but f9

hsandler · Aug 6, 2018

trondsi said:
Follow up question: I'm assuming that if I get another 135mm lens I don't need to do much adjustments to the range finder. Is adjusting the range finder for a different focal length an easy task? Can it be adjusted to, say 203mm?

Adjusting the Kalart is a long process which one would not want to do very often. Regarding a 203mm lens, I think the answer depends on whether it is a telephoto design or not, as the Kalart maxes out at a certain amount of bellows extension. The literature cited in this thread from graflex.org suggests that the maximum focal length that can be calibrated depends on which version of the Kalart you have (and I don't know how you tell the version).
https://graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=5254&sid=c153455129b701f2d063073a57c55cf3

Ian Grant · Aug 6, 2018

hsandler said:
Adjusting the Kalart is a long process which one would not want to do very often. Regarding a 203mm lens, I think the answer depends on whether it is a telephoto design or not, as the Kalart maxes out at a certain amount of bellows extension. The literature cited in this thread from graflex.org suggests that the maximum focal length that can be calibrated depends on which version of the Kalart you have (and I don't know how you tell the version).
https://graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=5254&sid=c153455129b701f2d063073a57c55cf3

The 203mm will be an f7.7 Ektar (or earlier uncoated Anastigmat), a dialyte, I think there was a Wollensak version as well.

Ian

trondsi · Aug 6, 2018

Another basic question: Maybe I'll buy an additional lens board, but if I want to use the one I have, how do I take the Optar off from the lens board? It seems to be firmly attached to the board, and I don't want to use too much force here.

EDIT: and just wanted to check: a European lens, like a Schneider Kreuznach will fit on the original Crown Graphic lens board, right?

Fotoguy20d · Aug 6, 2018

You'll need a lens spanner wrench. There should be a little ring on the back of the board threaded on to the shutter body. The modern plasmats will probably not fit into the opening on the board for an Optar.

hsandler · Aug 6, 2018

trondsi said:
Another basic question: Maybe I'll buy an additional lens board, but if I want to use the one I have, how do I take the Optar off from the lens board? It seems to be firmly attached to the board, and I don't want to use too much force here.

EDIT: and just wanted to check: a European lens, like a Schneider Kreuznach will fit on the original Crown Graphic lens board, right?

I can confirm that the Schneider-Kreuznach Xenar 135 f4.7 in a Copal Press shutter fits the same hole in the lens board as a Wollensak Optar 135mm f4.7 as does a Rodenstock Sironar-M 135mm, as I briefly owned all three and cycled them through the same board. They all were held on with a threaded retaining ring that was tightened against the back of the lens board. I now recall the retaining ring had two opposed notches for a lens spanner. I don't own one and (please don't shudder) I just put two little jeweller screwdrivers in the notches and pushed counterclockwise to loosen the ring, a recipe for scratching a lens or poking holes in your palm, but I got away with it at the time. I really should invest in a spanner.

shutterfinger · Aug 6, 2018

The 135 Optar has a 1.325 inch/ 33.6mm mount thread.
A Copal/Prontor/Seiko #0 has a 32.5mm mount thread.
Lens retainer rings that have not been loosened for a long period of time become fused to the lens and require a lot of force to remove.
Get a spanner.

BrianShaw · Aug 6, 2018

shutterfinger said:
The 135 Optar has a 1.325 inch/ 33.6mm mount thread.
A Copal/Prontor/Seiko #0 has a 32.5mm mount thread.
Lens retainer rings that have not been loosened for a long period of time become fused to the lens and require a lot of force to remove.
Get a spanner.

... and just to further clarify... that mm difference doesn’t matter. A “0” shutter fits the hole just fine.

shutterfinger · Aug 6, 2018

BrianShaw said:
... and just to further clarify... that mm difference doesn’t matter. A “0” shutter fits the hole just fine.

Actually the Copal 0 shutter will have a little play in the mount hole and the lens will need to be centered on the board to prevent unwanted rise/fall or left/right shift.

BrianShaw · Aug 6, 2018

shutterfinger said:
Actually the Copal 0 shutter will have a little play in the mount hole and the lens will need to be centered on the board to prevent unwanted rise/fall or left/right shift.

Sure. That’s very easy to do. But 1 mm off axis really doesn’t equate to a movement.

shutterfinger · Aug 6, 2018

BrianShaw said:
Sure. That’s very easy to do. But 1 mm off axis really doesn’t equate to a movement.

In what book, amateurs guide to general camera use?
Anything other than precise center is movement.

Some more Crown Graphic questions

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