Some Kodak B&W Film Deletions

Ian Grant · Feb 15, 2010

David A. Goldfarb said:
Despite claims from Bergger, BPF 200 has absolutely nothing to do with Super-XX other than being a nominally ISO 200 film, alas. Contrary to that article in _Shutterbug_, it wasn't a "French-made" film either in 2000. It was made by Forte in Hungary, now defunct, and it was identical to Fortepan 200.

David, the Forte/Bergger 200 was based on Kodak's pre-WWII Super-XX emulsion which was introduced in 1938 and also made & coated at Kodak's Hungarian factory, it was an old style thick emulsion and probable had only been upgraded/improved slightly over the years.

Ian

Tom Kershaw · Feb 15, 2010

I remember a few years ago Bergger BPF 200 was being promoted as not being re-branded Fortepan 200, but I can't imagine this was the case.

Tom

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 15, 2010

Tom Kershaw said:
I remember a few years ago Bergger BPF 200 was being promoted as not being re-branded Fortepan 200, but I can't imagine this was the case.

Tom

I am fairly positive that BPF 200 was Fortepan 200. Sandy King tested both films using the BTZS method when they were available and posted results in the Azo forum and could detect no significant difference. John Minakais from J&C, whom I no longer regard as a reliable source, claimed that he visited the Forte factory, and both films were being cut from the same master rolls. While I think we should probably be a bit circumspect about anything John told us in those days, his information about how East European films were sold and rebranded seems generally to have been reliable, and Sandy's tests did bear this out, and the film doesn't lie.

Ian Grant said:
David, the Forte/Bergger 200 was based on Kodak's pre-WWII Super-XX emulsion which was introduced in 1938 and also made & coated at Kodak's Hungarian factory, it was an old style thick emulsion and probable had only been upgraded/improved slightly over the years.

I know that this is often believed about the films made in the former Hungarian Kodak plant, but given economic conditions in Eastern Europe in the time since Kodak sold the plant, and the general level of manufacturing in the Eastern Bloc, I find it highly unlikely that the film was unchanged during that time. Before Bergger started selling it, I don't think there would have been much of an East European market for a film that was as expensive as Super-XX (about twice the cost of Tri-X), or that they could have continued pouring as much silver into film during the Hunt Brothers bubble of the 1980s. They would have had to have found ways to make it cheaper. Fortepan 400, before it was upgraded in its last phase, didn't have anything like the density range of Tri-X, and Fortepan 200 didn't have the density range or color response of even the outdated Super-XX I've had the good fortune to use.

bowie · Feb 15, 2010

Hello!
After delating KODACHROME with expiry date December 2010 I have realized that I had never seen TXP 320 with expiry date after September 2011 / February 2012. My suspect that Koday is going to discontinue TXP came true
Just have bought huge amount of TXP 320 available in Poland to freeze them
All good things pass away...

cmo · Feb 15, 2010

bowie said:
My suspect that Koday is going to discontinue TXP came true

Even if Kodak does not produce a 220 film any more or the 320 version, why should they stop producing the world's best-selling B&W film?

MikeSeb · Feb 15, 2010

cmo said:
Even if Kodak does not produce a 220 film any more or the 320 version, why should they stop producing the world's best-selling B&W film?

Because 320TXP is not the world's best selling B&W film. 400TX is.

Sal Santamaura · Feb 15, 2010

David A. Goldfarb said:
...a film that was as expensive as Super-XX (about twice the cost of Tri-X), or that they could have continued pouring as much silver into film...

Didn't Super-XX in its last incarnation(s) also use gold in the emulsion? Ron?

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 15, 2010

Sal Santamaura said:
Didn't Super-XX in its last incarnation(s) also use gold in the emulsion? Ron?

This was part of the theory behind why it was so expensive, but I think Ron expressed some doubts as to whether the amount of gold in the formula could have been responsible for the difference in price, if it was even a factor.

Photo Engineer · Feb 15, 2010

Gold was used at about 3 mg / every 108 grams of silver in Super XX IIRC. This is an estimate as I never worked to make and sensitize that particular emulsion. There were several other chemicals present as well including TAI (Tetra Aza Indene). It is similar to the formula described by Jim Browning on his web site, but more concentrated and with different run times.

PE

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 15, 2010

bowie said:
Hello!
After delating KODACHROME with expiry date December 2010 I have realized that I had never seen TXP 320 with expiry date after September 2011 / February 2012.

My latest batch expires 06/2012.

Ian Grant · Feb 15, 2010

David A. Goldfarb said:
I know that this is often believed about the films made in the former Hungarian Kodak plant, but given economic conditions in Eastern Europe in the time since Kodak sold the plant, and the general level of manufacturing in the Eastern Bloc, I find it highly unlikely that the film was unchanged during that time. Before Bergger started selling it, I don't think there would have been much of an East European market for a film that was as expensive as Super-XX (about twice the cost of Tri-X), or that they could have continued pouring as much silver into film during the Hunt Brothers bubble of the 1980s. They would have had to have found ways to make it cheaper. Fortepan 400, before it was upgraded in its last phase, didn't have anything like the density range of Tri-X, and Fortepan 200 didn't have the density range or color response of even the outdated Super-XX I've had the good fortune to use.

Looking at a Kodak advert for 1938/9 Super-XX is listed alongside Plus-X as a newly introduced film with 4x the speed of Pan-X, available as a stills & cine film, this is well before Tri-X, and it competed with Ilford's newly introduced HP2 which was slightly faster.

I suspect that it was Kodak's Super-XX that changed & evolved, possible when Tri-X was introduced, leaving the Hungarian product behindm evolving in it's own way.

Ian

bowie · Feb 15, 2010

David A. Goldfarb said:
My latest batch expires 06/2012.

I bought TXP 320 two year ago in B&H, their expiry date was September 2011. My latest purchase, fresh from the shop, also had Sept 2011 date. TXP beeing produced a few years ago is still available. It was not massive seller negative, that is the reason why Kodak discontinued it

rphenning · Feb 15, 2010

i just bought 20 rolls of portra with that expiration date. ^

B&Wpositive · Feb 16, 2010

Was just listening to an interview of Mr. DiSabato by Scott Sheppard on this topic (it explains everything in detail), and he goes over the available black and white films about 2/3 of the way through. Only 4 films in addition to TXP were mentioned: Plus-X, Tri-X 400, T-Max 100, and T-Max 400. T-Max 3200 was not mentioned, curiously.

http://cdn3.libsyn.com/insidemedian...30&nva=20100217044830&t=0ce54bbbb2c566edb88e2

Tim Gray · Feb 16, 2010

I thought he clearly stated that TMZ was not being discontinued? If it wasn't mentioned in that interview, he did say in an email (quoted somewhere in this thread) that it was not currently discontinued.

The announcement at the center of this conversation is not entirely accurate as no decision has been made to discontinue T-Max P3200 (TMZ).

B&Wpositive · Feb 16, 2010

Tim Gray said:
I thought he clearly stated that TMZ was not being discontinued? If it wasn't mentioned in that interview, he did say in an email (quoted somewhere in this thread) that it was not currently discontinued.

Correct. I was just wondering why he did not mention it in the interview. Perhaps he forgot it? It is after all, a current product.

DLawson · Feb 16, 2010

Tim Gray said:
I thought he clearly stated that TMZ was not being discontinued? If it wasn't mentioned in that interview, he did say in an email (quoted somewhere in this thread) that it was not currently discontinued.

The original post stated that it was in the discontinuation list, but with an uncertain end date. That was later "clarified" to not being discontinued.

Given the way Kodak's communications have gone in the past, that is usually the pattern for "discontinued but we don't want to deal with the fallout yet." Time will tell.

For now, the official word seems to be "not discontinued."

kraker · Feb 16, 2010

David A. Goldfarb said:
My latest batch expires 06/2012.

Same here, received 7 pro-packs in the mail today. I'll use it wisely.

Tom Kershaw · Feb 16, 2010

rphenning said:
i just bought 20 rolls of portra with that expiration date. ^

I'm generally under the impression that Kodak Portra films tend to be sold with fairly sort expiration dates; presumably as an aid to consistency.

Tom

Tim Gray · Feb 16, 2010

DLawson said:
The original post stated that it was in the discontinuation list, but with an uncertain end date. That was later "clarified" to not being discontinued.

Given the way Kodak's communications have gone in the past, that is usually the pattern for "discontinued but we don't want to deal with the fallout yet." Time will tell.

For now, the official word seems to be "not discontinued."

I agree with your analysis. Including the part about, for now, it's not discontinued. I mentioned earlier in this thread that Kodak's definition of discontinued might be different than ours. We want to know if they are still making it. They think in terms of still selling it.

jgjbowen · Feb 17, 2010

I just received a big shipment from Unique Photo in NJ. www.uniquephoto.com

I just checked and their website still lists it as in stock....

I have no affiliation with Unique Photo

2F/2F · Feb 17, 2010

Ah...This has been a bad past couple of years. I wish I had thousands of dollars to stockpile:

EPP
E100GX
TXP 120/220
Fuji Pro 800 120/220
Fuji T64 (and EPY, though I always preferred the Fuji)
Portra 100T
HIE (and also EIR)
Polaroid Type 665

Probably missed a few...but these are the ones I'll really feel the pain from.

B&Wpositive · Feb 17, 2010

2F/2F said:
Ah...This has been a bad past couple of years. I wish I had thousands of dollars to stockpile:

EPP
E100GX
TXP 120/220
Fuji Pro 800 120/220
Fuji T64 (and EPY, though I always preferred the Fuji)
Portra 100T
HIE (and also EIR)
Polaroid Type 665

Probably missed a few...but these are the ones I'll really feel the pain from.

What's with Fuji 800Z in 120/220? People are claiming it's discontinued. There's already a thread on it, so don't answer here.

schlger · Feb 19, 2010

nickrapak said:
That may be so, but with the rumors circulating around P3200, I have a feeling that this coating will be the last.

my current TMZ expires 2-2011

dr5chrome · Feb 21, 2010

dupes, copy, interpositive...

PE;
I have devised a method of producing copy negs, internegs & dupes "without" image generation loss. Sometimes even enhancing but in all cases there is a 99% + retention without special film.

You are free to send me some images or call and ill share my findings,, on the house.

regards

dw

Photo Engineer said:
I am using a hybrid method to produce internegs in B&W, but I find that digital cannot replicate a color transparency or color negative with any degree of fidelity yet. So, duping is a real problem.

PE

Some Kodak B&W Film Deletions

Ian Grant

Tom Kershaw

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

bowie

cmo

MikeSeb

Sal Santamaura

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

Photo Engineer

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

Ian Grant

bowie

rphenning

B&Wpositive

Tim Gray

B&Wpositive

DLawson

kraker

Tom Kershaw

Tim Gray

jgjbowen

2F/2F

B&Wpositive

schlger

dr5chrome

Some Kodak B&W Film Deletions

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

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Privacy & Transparency