Some Kodak B&W Film Deletions

Are some of the slide discontinuations basically the same film re-branded for consumers?

Didn't Agfa have a 220 machine when they went bankrupt?

The thing I'm not understanding here is this:

Kodak and Fuji both make 220 color film.

Are they using totally different cutting and packaging machines than those used for 220 b&w?

B&Wpositive said:

The thing I'm not understanding here is this:

Kodak and Fuji both make 220 color film.

Are they using totally different cutting and packaging machines than those used for 220 b&w?

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Hmmmmm........

B&Wpositive said:

The thing I'm not understanding here is this:

Kodak and Fuji both make 220 color film.

Are they using totally different cutting and packaging machines than those used for 220 b&w?

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Damn good point.

B&Wpositive said:

Are they using totally different cutting and packaging machines than those used for 220 b&w?

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Are they even using the same manufacturing facility, for that matter?

Been reading PE's posts?

i don't want to sound dumb, but has this been 100% proved to be true? like from kodak.

like at this point i have seen nothing more then "rumors" at this point. but that is just what i have seen from this thread.

Kodak and Fuji have never shared facilities for anything related to manufacture or packaging.

In addition, the Kodak machines were custom built. After all, how many companies spool film world wide. And, the 220 and 120 machines are a bit different.

PE

DonaldJ. said:

i don't want to sound dumb, but has this been 100% proved to be true? like from kodak.

like at this point i have seen nothing more then "rumors" at this point. but that is just what i have seen from this thread.

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In case you missed it--

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

thank you, i had not seen that.

David A. Goldfarb said:

In case you missed it--

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

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Says everything worth noting now David...sheet film users are fine. 220 users might be in trouble, but they can use 120-less convenient, but they will have film.

Ed

Mahler_one said:

Says everything worth noting now David...sheet film users are fine. 220 users might be in trouble, but they can use 120-less convenient, but they will have film.

Ed

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120 is discontinued as well. Large format will be the only type of Tri-X 320 left. Apparently, medium format Tri-X 320 accounted for under 5% of all their Tri-X.

Photo Engineer said:

Kodak and Fuji have never shared facilities for anything related to manufacture or packaging.

In addition, the Kodak machines were custom built. After all, how many companies spool film world wide. And, the 220 and 120 machines are a bit different.

PE

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The guy who said something about Kodak and Fuji using the same machines for 220 wasn't talking about the companies sharing the machines. He was saying that since both companies still make 220 size color films, they should have no trouble making 220 BW films because they could use the machine(s) they use for color to do black and white too by having both film lines share the same machine(s) at each company....not the two companies sharing each others equipment.

I suspect that may be expensive to do, or they would have already closed down one line to save money.

Even if it was possible, who is buying the film before it expires?

Mike

Dear All,

Firstly, as far as we at HARMAN are concerned, any deletions of monochrome ( or colour ) products is bad for our world of analog photography, choice of products to use and experiment with to take forward our individual progression within the medium are part of what will ensure that our passion continues and what will bring new users into the art of analog photography. Competition is also neccesary in all industries to drive forward investment and technological advancement.

If we are talking about technological advancement and fine products, then surely KODAK and FUJI ( and the people in these businesses ) must be held in the highest regard for decades of innovation and excellence, the reality of the changing face of photography has brought challenges to us all, ILFORD Photo / HARMAN included.

The 'business' of manufacturing photographic products and the choices you have to make are not easy ones, as with many 'changing industries' every photo manufacturer is different, with adifferent set of challenges. We are indeed very fortuanate in that we have one very large coating machine but it does coat Film, Paper ( RC and Baryta ) inket as well as other substrates and since taking over the business we have developed and managed new processes to coat smaller volumes, but of course, regardless, whatever you coat, it must remain profitable.

So to 220....we have explained in great detail before, though we would love to do it, it is just not an option for us, and this news will not change that. The volume is very, very small and we would need a new converting machine ( cost in excess of £ 300,000 ) and before anybody suggests it : second hand machines just DO NOT appear on the market, we know because we have tried, even then you then need to make ( buy ) tops and tails ( in huge quantities ) and coat on the thinner support, in other words a 'different' film and then you have to ensure it is stocked through the supply chain, and apart from the specialist re-sellers that can be a challenge all in itself. Also you cannot make it 'by hand' as I have seen suggested, or it least we cannot as you could not guarantee the quality levels that we need to achieve. As always, catch PE's posts on this area to get the real manufacturing issues.

As to specualation about our film product range ( and indeed paper ) absolutely no changes whatsoever are planned or expected, we have well over 2,000 SKU's in film, paper, chemistry and accessories, but it means doing many things differently in 2010 ( and before that ) such as coating SFX only twice per annum and producing our ULF film run once per annum and only making ULF available in FP4+ and HP5+ ( which we will, of course, do again in 2010 ).

Our business is monochrome, it has been since the 1960's, so yes we are, and always have been a niche producer, in 10 days time its actually the 5th anniversary of the founding of HARMAN technology Limited, so a very big thank you to all our APUG customers who use and value our products and once again, sorry about 220...


Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Good to hear Simon Just got some 120 Delta 3200 in the mail too - can't wait to try it.

For what it's worth, I also received some TMZ ordered from B&H. The date is 11/2010. Fresher than what Freestyle has been carrying, but I don't know if the emulsion number is different.

Simon, thanks for keeping the lines of communication open. I only wish the other manufacturers would have emissaries here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Reed
There are various Kodak colour transparency films to go as well, I'll try to find a link to a web page as it's quite a lot of information.

2F/2F said:

Any update on this front, Martin?

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As I was unsure whether there would be an armed posse out looking for the messenger, I went away for the weekend out of reach of the internet.

The colour film information I summarised early on in the thread.

The fact that colour transparency film will be rationalised is really no surprise, probably that will have been long in the planning, there were so many covering a market that was plumetting. However all the varieties of Ektachrome found their own user base which must have postponed the cull.

The range covered by this thread has been interesting, revealing how small are some of the markets for these professional films. Also how convoluted an operation is Kodak, when the majority of the sales offices seem to be unaware of what has been issued from their central planning. A quite different approach from Harman, who invariably have their finger on the pulse.

chriscrawfordphoto said:

The guy who said something about Kodak and Fuji using the same machines for 220 wasn't talking about the companies sharing the machines. He was saying that since both companies still make 220 size color films, they should have no trouble making 220 BW films because they could use the machine(s) they use for color to do black and white too by having both film lines share the same machine(s) at each company....not the two companies sharing each others equipment.

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Yeah, yeah, I misread the post. Everyone makes mistakes, sorry. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Ok, so the EK and Fuji color machines are running full time to keep up with production. Should they break the cycle and shove in a few rolls of B&W for the few customers left? How is that for a scenario. Shutting down color production, cleaning up the debris, restocking the machines with new leader and trailer paper, and new boxes and then putting in a master roll length of the B&W film to run off hundreds or thousands of rolls for only dozens of sales?

I really don't think it is a problem in this area though. As both Simon and I pointed out, it is a coating problem and a paper backing problem more than anything else. And the insurmountable sales issue!

PE

viridari said:

Simon, thanks for keeping the lines of communication open. I only wish the other manufacturers would have emissaries here.

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I wonder what Scott DiSabado was doing when he replied to David Goldfarb? Isn't he from Kodak?

PE

kristopher_lawrence said:

Anyone know if TMZ keeps well once refrigerated ? I might stock up. My guess is that its high speed makes it very prone to fogging.

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It doesn't keep well. I have a bunch in the freezer that I never got around to using. It's a couple of years past date and not at all useful for my purposes at anything over and EI of around 1600.

I shoot my outdated TMZ at 800. A lot of basefog. That stuff was about 2 years past date.

Much easier to keep track of the pulse on eight tentacles than 8,000 I'd expect. I am glad Ilford is doing a great job with the B&W market they have and wish them sucess (using HP5+ in 4x5 myself).

Thanks Simon, PE and Scott for the updates.

Mike

Tim, Frank, TMZ isn't discontinued. Also, 2-stop pull after 2 years expiration? Are you storing it on top of the furnace? I just deved some 2004 TMZ, notably increased base fog but perfectly usable negatives. Oh yeah, it was airport scanned 10+ times too. Great film.

Photo Engineer said:

I wonder what Scott DiSabado was doing when he replied to David Goldfarb? Isn't he from Kodak?

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That was indeed a nice email response that got posted back to this thread, but it's quite different from the level of forum participation that I was thanking Simon for.