Some Crown Graphic speculation, please!

Terrence Brennan · Apr 25, 2023

I was looking at a Crown Graphic camera today, in a small photo operation, which has "gone digital." I asked if it was for sale, it is, and the proprietor of the operation contacted the owner, who is to get back to me in a day or two with the asking price. It is well used, with a 135mm f/4.7 Optar lens, in a Graphic shutter, which if I have my info correct, is actually a Wollensak lens and an Ilex shutter.

The lens looks okay, if a bit dirty; I couldn't see any scratches or fungus. The problem is the shutter; when cocked and released, the shutter opens but does not close. A bit of gentle pressure on the cocking lever will cause the shutter to close. The focusing action is smooth, but the rangefinder doesn't respond, so it's either broken, or the linkage is broken, or there's no rangefinder cam installed.

Okay, the big question is, what is this camera worth, in its current state? And, if I can afford the asking price, or can bargain the owner down, what would it cost to CLA the camera? I do realize it's a unfair to ask questions like that, and for someone to comment on the value of the camera sight unseen, but if I can get even a rough, ballpark figure for its purchase and the necessary CLA, I may make the owner an offer. As I am in Ottawa, Ontario, and the local currency is Great White North Pesos (some call it the Canadian Dollar), if you have a figure in mind, please give it to me in US Dollars, and I'll do the conversion, which today is US$1.00 = CA$1.40, ouch!

Moderators: if I am way out of line with this request, I shall be glad to extend my arm for a (digital) slap on the wrist.

mshchem · Apr 25, 2023

Terrence Brennan said:
I was looking at a Crown Graphic camera today, in a small photo operation, which has "gone digital." I asked if it was for sale, it is, and the proprietor of the operation contacted the owner, who is to get back to me in a day or two with the asking price. It is well used, with a 135mm f/4.7 Optar lens, in a Graphic shutter, which if I have my info correct, is actually a Wollensak lens and an Ilex shutter.

The lens looks okay, if a bit dirty; I couldn't see any scratches or fungus. The problem is the shutter; when cocked and released, the shutter opens but does not close. A bit of gentle pressure on the cocking lever will cause the shutter to close. The focusing action is smooth, but the rangefinder doesn't respond, so it's either broken, or the linkage is broken, or there's no rangefinder cam installed.

Okay, the big question is, what is this camera worth, in its current state? And, if I can afford the asking price, or can bargain the owner down, what would it cost to CLA the camera? I do realize it's a unfair to ask questions like that, and for someone to comment on the value of the camera sight unseen, but if I can get even a rough, ballpark figure for its purchase and the necessary CLA, I may make the owner an offer. As I am in Ottawa, Ontario, and the local currency is Great White North Pesos (some call it the Canadian Dollar), if you have a figure in mind, please give it to me in US Dollars, and I'll do the conversion, which today is US$1.00 = CA$1.40, ouch!

Moderators: if I am way out of line with this request, I shall be glad to extend my arm for a (digital) slap on the wrist.

Back in ancient times we had Canadian suppliers quote prices, they'd ask if we wanted the price in Eagle or Beaver dollars.

I love these cameras. I wouldn't pay over $100 CND for this. Look for a better example.

Having said this if the lens indeed doesn't have fungus, and the only way to know for sure is to clean it up and inspect with good light. The shutter is gummed up. You might get lucky and can clean up the shutter with the front and rear lens elements removed. People use cigarette lighter fluid (Ronsonal).

Almost no help for the rangefinder short of paying good money for new mirrors inside, can be done but it's around 200-300 USD.

My recommendation is to look for a nice Crown with the Top rangefinder, still the classic Pacemaker Crown, but with an internal top rangefinder and the Schneider Xenar 135mm lens. These have the cool feature of a light bulb that will project through the rangefinder so you can focus in the dark. You also need to make sure that you get the Graflock back.
Check out this site.

Graflex.Org: Speed Graphics, Large Format Photography, and More

graflex.org

AnselMortensen · Apr 25, 2023

Pricing ('asking price') can be all over the map for 4x5 Crown Graphics...best bet would be to check the "SOLD" items on Ebay for actual prices realized for ones in a similar condition to the one you're looking at.
One caveat: Don't be fooled by a 3 1/4" x 4 1/4" camera pretending to be a 4x5...measure the ground glass.
If you can, test the bellows for pinholes with a flashlight from the inside.
Does it have a Graflok back? That's a plus....it will allow use of roll-film holders, etc.
Check www.graflex.org for more info.
Expect to pay around US$150 or so for a quality CLA, not somebody who'll splash some lighter fluid in it and call it "CLA'd".

mshchem · Apr 25, 2023

AnselMortensen said:
Pricing ('asking price') can be all over the map for 4x5 Crown Graphics...best bet would be to check the "SOLD" items on Ebay for actual prices realized for ones in a similar condition to the one you're looking at.
One caveat: Don't be fooled by a 3 1/4" x 4 1/4" camera pretending to be a 4x5...measure the ground glass.
If you can, test the bellows for pinholes with a flashlight from the inside.
Does it have a Graflok back? That's a plus....it will allow use of roll-film holders, etc.
Check www.graflex.org for more info.
Expect to pay around US$150 or so for a quality CLA, not somebody who'll splash some lighter fluid in it and call it "CLA'd".

I prefer Kodak movie film cleaner, the old stuff, now banned by international treaties. The good old, (yet newer) Wollensak shutters are super easy to clean up, but I wouldn't guarantee it.

Every camera I've had serviced, by the best folks, usually smells a bit like some sort of spirit.

I paid $135 for my first Crown, functional but dim side rangefinder, perfectly functional Schneider Xenar with a perfectly functional Compur shutter, with a Graflok back. I still have the camera.

You definitely want a functional rangefinder, that's what makes these Press cameras.

I would guess 4x5 sheet film runs about 2 usd a sheet for Ilford FP4??

One great thing is 4x5 makes stunning contact prints!!

Donald Qualls · Apr 26, 2023

mshchem said:
I would guess 4x5 sheet film runs about 2 usd a sheet for Ilford FP4??

Probably a little higher now. That matches my recollection from two-three years ago, before all the film prices starting jumping. Fomapan/.EDU Ultra 100 is a good film and a decent substitute for FP4+, IMO, at about half the price per sheet.

nosmok · Apr 26, 2023

Love Crown Graphics, hate the rangefinders, scale focus FTW! Having said that... treat this camera as not having a lens for purposes of figuring out a price-- a CLA on the lens will cost more than just hunting down a functioning lens unit.

Donald Qualls · Apr 26, 2023

nosmok said:
hate the rangefinders, scale focus FTW!

Depends on the RF. I love my Kalarts (got one on my Annie Speed and another on my Century). I've done scale focus with my plate cameras, but for a camera like a Speed or Crown you have to verify that the scale you have matches the mounted lens (and it doesn't on my Annie, and they're not readily available any more). At least with a Kalart you can pretty easily calibrate it for whatever lens it comes with.

grat · Apr 28, 2023

If the rangefinder isn't working, that's a concern-- but remember, it's not going to work for the full range of focusing motion, so start with the front standard at the right position for the 135mm lens. You definitely want a graflok back (two chrome sliders). The shutter probably just needs a bit of cleaning, and remember that the lens/shutter is a separate element from the camera. Assuming everything's present and not broken on the body itself, a "CLA" is something you can do.

If/When they come back with a price, check it against selling prices on eBay (selling, not asking-- there are tools out there to check what prices things are actually being sold for).

And heck-- Post some pictures if you got 'em, and we'll all sit around and explain why you'd be better off buying unexploded ordnance from WWII.

Terrence Brennan · Apr 29, 2023

I heard from the owner and he's not interested in selling. A blessing in disguise?

BrianShaw · Apr 29, 2023

Terrence Brennan said:
I heard from the owner and he's not interested in selling. A blessing in disguise?

Probably, yes. It sounds more like a "parts camera" than one that can be used without putting in a lot of effort.

mshchem · Apr 29, 2023

Terrence Brennan said:
I heard from the owner and he's not interested in selling. A blessing in disguise?

Absolutely! Look for a nice one. Rangefinder that works and all the rest.

I shoot medium format rangefinders, no cut film holders easy film processing.

Still 4x5 negatives are hard to beat.

wattda · Apr 29, 2023

I went down a similar road last year. Decent lenses are relatively cheap and top mounted Graflex rangefinder parts are hard to find. The side mounted Kalart rangefinders, however, you can still find new in box. Be patient and wait for a good one.

jimgalli · Apr 30, 2023

135 US can buy the same cam in the same condition all day on ebay. Don't let them buffalo you into thinking they're holding some priceless antiquety. It is not. Not yet anyways. Perhaps in 150 years it will be.

wattda · Apr 30, 2023

I agree. the only think Graflex thats collectable are the original round red switch 3 cell battery holders for the flash, Due to the Star wars fan boys making lightsabers out of them. the newer square button ones are much cheaper.

harlequin · Apr 30, 2023

Hi

I am in Thunder Bay and hit the thrift stores and got an aluminum framed Busch 4x5 folder. No lens just a blank copal 1 blank lens board. All in $75 Canadian or approx 57 USD!
After a toothbrush cleanup and lubrication of focusing tracks very well built. A friend sold me a 150mm Symmar and some 4x5 film holders. I know speed/crown graphics cameras are much more popular but keep looking if that costs you more than $120.
Particularly if the lens has fungus.

Go Maple Leafs Go!

Harlequin

Some Crown Graphic speculation, please!

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