Some beginner questions about RA4 printing

Stanislaw · Aug 1, 2022

Hello everyone,

I'm trying to get decent and, most importantly, repetitive results when printing RA4.
What I'm working with:
Meopta Magnifax 4 enlarger with Color 3 head like this one here and Rodenstock Rodegon 80mm f/4 lens.
Durst RCP-20 processor (I'm running it at lower temp), Fuji MP160 Developer and Blix (Enviroprint), Fuji Crystal Archive Glossy paper.

Issues so far:
Uneven cut paper - all I have atm is some cheap paper cutter and I'm thinking about upgrading that to DAHLE 508 rotary trimmer - is that a good idea?
Too high contrast - I'm going to switch to Kodak Endura paper

And the biggest one: on every print I write down the settings and I was baffled when doing a print on day one with some fixed settings, I came back the second day, used the same settings and got different results (not by much, but the print was a bit more green-yellow). How can I troubleshoot that? Is that color head not working properly (transformer is rated for 220v, while I have 250v at the socket)? Is that an issue with chemistry? I mean, I'm going to try with Kodak chemistry, but it's going to take some time before I'll have some time to test that.

Also about preflashing paper - how do you actually do that? How do you filter for it?

Aaand one more thing - I'm going for a workshop in a darkroom that does color prints. They are working on Durst Laborator 1200/1000 enlangers with CLS 501/450 heads. How big of a difference is between these and my Magnifax?

koraks · Aug 1, 2022

Stanislaw said:
is that a good idea?

Yeah, a rotary trimmer does make life easier when cutting paper in the dark, IMO.

Stanislaw said:
Too high contrast - I'm going to switch to Kodak Endura paper

Sorry, you're out of luck here, in multiple ways:
1: Fuji Crystal Archive is already the 'lowest' contrast paper out there. I.e., Endura is slightly higher contrast.
2: Endura AFAIK is not being manufactured at this point and hasn't been for a couple of years. Any stocks are lingering old stocks of unknown reliability. If you manage to buy some, it may now have been fogged with age.

Too high contrast implies either a print developing issue (over-replenished chemistry, development time too long for the development temperature or vice versa) or too high negative contrast (scene too contrasty, over-developed negatives, etc.) Perhaps an example will help spot the problem and how bad it is.

Stanislaw said:
How can I troubleshoot that?

That's a very tricky one. The main thing is to isolate variables. I read you run the RCP20 at a lower temperature; are you running it at the same temperature every time, or is there variation between sessions? Make sure that the development parameters are identical across sessions. Ensure that your developer is replenished at the proper rate, and if possible at all, check developer pH to at least see if you're going out of bounds in a major way.

Stanislaw said:
I'm going to try with Kodak chemistry

99.9% certain that's not going to fix your problem. Besides, I'm running almost the same chemistry as you are (MP90 instead of MP160), and since very recently also in an RCP20 (but at 38C; why go lower if you have the machine anyway?) Works a treat.

Stanislaw said:
(transformer is rated for 220v, while I have 250v at the socket)?

Not necessarily a problem, but it might be an issue if that socket voltage also fluctuates. There are ways to deal with this, but check first if this is the case before embarking on costly equipment acquisitions. Frankly I wouldn't expect the problem as you describe it to be voltage related.

Is the yellow/green cast present in the image itself or also in the borders? Can you post examples?

Stanislaw said:
How big of a difference is between these and my Magnifax?

In terms of filter settings, you mean? I don't know; it'll be a hit or miss thing. But I wouldn't bother with it; just make test strips at the workshop and take it from there. Once upon a time I had this nice thought of having the same filter settings across enlargers, until I realized I just don't care as long as I get the same colors from print to print from the same enlarger...

DREW WILEY · Aug 1, 2022

Several issues. Fuji Crystal Archive is not a single product with a single contrast level, but large selection of RA4 media, with some product names differing in the EU from here in the US. Slight color variations from one day to another using the same enlarger can be due to voltage fluctuations (ditto what koraks said ) or even significant temperatures swings in the colorhead itself. That Durst L1200 enlarger has certain internal feedback features your Meopta doesn't, to help control those kinds of issues. But I always trigger any colorhead a few times to warm it up prior to an actual print. Then you've got the potential for temp and concentration shifts in the chemistry itself. Pin down the basics before attempting pre-flashing or other advanced techniques.

Stanislaw · Aug 2, 2022

koraks said:
Yeah, a rotary trimmer does make life easier when cutting paper in the dark, IMO.

Sorry, you're out of luck here, in multiple ways:
1: Fuji Crystal Archive is already the 'lowest' contrast paper out there. I.e., Endura is slightly higher contrast.
2: Endura AFAIK is not being manufactured at this point and hasn't been for a couple of years. Any stocks are lingering old stocks of unknown reliability. If you manage to buy some, it may now have been fogged with age.

Too high contrast implies either a print developing issue (over-replenished chemistry, development time too long for the development temperature or vice versa) or too high negative contrast (scene too contrasty, over-developed negatives, etc.) Perhaps an example will help spot the problem and how bad it is.

That's a very tricky one. The main thing is to isolate variables. I read you run the RCP20 at a lower temperature; are you running it at the same temperature every time, or is there variation between sessions? Make sure that the development parameters are identical across sessions. Ensure that your developer is replenished at the proper rate, and if possible at all, check developer pH to at least see if you're going out of bounds in a major way.

99.9% certain that's not going to fix your problem. Besides, I'm running almost the same chemistry as you are (MP90 instead of MP160), and since very recently also in an RCP20 (but at 38C; why go lower if you have the machine anyway?) Works a treat.

Not necessarily a problem, but it might be an issue if that socket voltage also fluctuates. There are ways to deal with this, but check first if this is the case before embarking on costly equipment acquisitions. Frankly I wouldn't expect the problem as you describe it to be voltage related.

Is the yellow/green cast present in the image itself or also in the borders? Can you post examples?

In terms of filter settings, you mean? I don't know; it'll be a hit or miss thing. But I wouldn't bother with it; just make test strips at the workshop and take it from there. Once upon a time I had this nice thought of having the same filter settings across enlargers, until I realized I just don't care as long as I get the same colors from print to print from the same enlarger...

Thank you for your reply I see Kodak Endura Premier readily available in wholesaler's shop, I don't think they would sell old stock that could be fogged. If that's different from Kodak Endura then sorry for causing confusion.

Yes, I'm running RCP20 at 28*C and this is fixed temperature. (my RCP20 isn't modded for RA4, that's why I run it at this temp)
Also a question about replenishment - how often do you replenish the developer? And do you use developer starter?

I don't think I have these prints, but I need to check. And that color shift was only on the image, borders were white.

DREW WILEY said:
Several issues. Fuji Crystal Archive is not a single product with a single contrast level, but large selection of RA4 media, with some product names differing in the EU from here in the US. Slight color variations from one day to another using the same enlarger can be due to voltage fluctuations (ditto what koraks said ) or even significant temperatures swings in the colorhead itself. That Durst L1200 enlarger has certain internal feedback features your Meopta doesn't, to help control those kinds of issues. But I always trigger any colorhead a few times to warm it up prior to an actual print. Then you've got the potential for temp and concentration shifts in the chemistry itself. Pin down the basics before attempting pre-flashing or other advanced techniques.

Ah, okay, I didn't know that product names can differ (why do that anyway?). Label has the info: Fujifilm Fujicolor Paper 20.3cm x 124m 200-263 Glossy.
I'll try with warming up the colorhead next time
Also, how often should I replenish the chemistry? Like, should I do that every print or can I do it every, like 5-10 prints? I'm cutting the paper into 14x20 size, so it's 0,028 m2 * 160ml/m2 = 4,48ml every print. Durst RCP20 has developer tank size of 2,5L.

koraks · Aug 2, 2022

Stanislaw said:
I see Kodak Endura Premier readily available in wholesaler's shop, I don't think they would sell old stock that could be fogged

Ok, if you think so...I wouldn't take any bets on it though.

Stanislaw said:
Yes, I'm running RCP20 at 28*C and this is fixed temperature. (my RCP20 isn't modded for RA4, that's why I run it at this temp)

Ok, that's not good. You're severely overdeveloping the paper which can result particularly in significant yellow/green shifts. Better mod your RCP20 for RA4; IMO it's essentially useless for RA4 unmodified as the process steps are waaaay too long. RA4 has a bit of leeway for overdevelopment, but not that much. Even at room temperature the RCP20's development time is about twice as long as it should be for acceptable results.

Stanislaw said:
Also a question about replenishment - how often do you replenish the developer?

As per Fuji's recommendations of course! Yours is called MP160 for a reason: you replenish by 160ml per square meter. I replenish less as I use MP90. I generally replenish after a session which will be around 2sqm when doing small prints, similar in size to yours. You could replenish more often if you feel like it, but don't exceed Fuji's specifications on replenishment.

Also I'd recommend getting a pH meter to check if your developer pH is within an acceptable range. Off the top of my head it should be around 10.25 ~ 10.30, but there are small differences between the various developers.

Stanislaw said:
And do you use developer starter?

No, I season once by running a substantial length of scrap paper through it and bring pH into range with acetic acid, then maintain the working stock by replenishment. A fresh tank without seasoning or starter will have a pH around 10.60 or so, which will give major problems in contrast and color balance.

I think your priority is to modify your RCP20 so that it actually does what you're using it for.

DREW WILEY · Aug 2, 2022

I really can't add much at this point. The bugs do need to be worked out regarding correct use of the machine, with replenishment technique being an added complication. But once that is ironed out, one still cannot assumed they are working with fresh paper. A few months ago I phoned a major supplied of Fuji paper in this country, and the sales person at the other end of the line told me the paper never goes bad in his experience. Well, that pretty much summed it up.... his own experience, which was obviously darn little, and the basis for his incompetent information. And there are discounters who sell nothing but outdated papers.

koraks · Aug 2, 2022

DREW WILEY said:
the paper never goes bad in his experience.

Lol. Yeah, that about sums it up.

sillo · Aug 3, 2022

I had a pretty similar experience calling Fuji to ask about some different paper stocks. Got bounced back and forth to different departments multiple times until someone just told me they didn't know the answer to my questions. Ended up getting on the phone with Buzz at Pakor who had all the answers I needed.

DREW WILEY · Aug 3, 2022

Fujifilm USA is one of those numerous corporations which has the asinine policy of putting entry-level employees in customer service positions, as if that role was merely equivalent to a switchboard operator. It sometimes takes a lot of patience to get through to anyone with real answers. One of these days I should get ahold of a real Fuji Sales Rep which might (or might not) know more. I was a professional buyer before retirement, and can affirmatively state that there are a lot of really hard-working highly informed sales people representing corporations out there; but during the past two decades, many of them have been replaced by low-paid idiots, just so some big shot up top can pocket the difference. That generally backfires terribly in terms of sales volume. I'm not suggesting that's the case at Fuji. I just don't know till I try. But those guys work on commission, so are understandably focussed on major accounts, and might not even be allowed to deal with people like us.

Sometimes submitting questions by e-mail works better, sometimes not.

Sirius Glass · Aug 3, 2022

DREW WILEY said:
Fujifilm USA is one of those numerous corporations which has the asinine policy of putting entry-level employees in customer service positions, as if that role was merely equivalent to a switchboard operator. It sometimes takes a lot of patience to get through to anyone with real answers. One of these days I should get ahold of a real Fuji Sales Rep which might (or might not) know more. I was a professional buyer before retirement, and can affirmatively state that there are a lot of really hard-working highly informed sales people representing corporations out there; but during the past two decades, many of them have been replaced by low-paid idiots, just so some big shot up top can pocket the difference. That generally backfires terribly in terms of sales volume. I'm not suggesting that's the case at Fuji. I just don't know till I try. But those guys work on commission, so are understandably focussed on major accounts, and might not even be allowed to deal with people like us.

Sometimes submitting questions by e-mail works better, sometimes not.

Some are able to read scripts. Those who can read, are not intelligent enough to answer questions that fall outside the script.

mshchem · Aug 3, 2022

I have a RCP 20, I changed the gearing to accommodate RA4 at 35° C. Works great. Definitely would recommend starter for fresh tank solution. And I would get fresh Fujifilm paper.

I still use the old Kodak drum processors occasionally. You definitely need starter with these.

DREW WILEY · Aug 4, 2022

I do everything in drums, one shot Starter, never replenished. That alleviates certain variables, but is otherwise slower to use. Always 30C, with just enough chemistry mixed from the separate concentrates for that one daily session.

Steve@f8 · Aug 4, 2022

Here’s another question: why is is it called RA4?

koraks · Aug 4, 2022

Pretty sure RA stands for Rapid Access, and probably it's the 4th generation of some form of color print processing.

Again one of those questions that make me wish PE was still around; he'd have burped up the answer in a heartbeat.

MattKing · Aug 4, 2022

Steve@f8 said:
Here’s another question: why is is it called RA4?

Actually, it is RA-4, and that is just Kodak's proprietary name for it's most recent process.

Steve@f8 · Aug 4, 2022

Thanks guys.

Algo después · Oct 7, 2022

... and also thanks for this vid

Steve@f8 said:
Thanks guys.

koraks · Oct 8, 2022

Oh, you're welcome - to my defense, my present darkroom looks slightly less...1969

foc · Oct 8, 2022

Steve@f8 said:
Here’s another question: why is is it called RA4?

IIRC the Kodak name RA-4 stood for rapid access and Fuji's name was FA meaning fast access.

Mick Fagan · Oct 9, 2022

RA4 = Rapid Access 4 minutes dry to dry.

DREW WILEY · Oct 9, 2022

Probably one of the reasons why so many of em faded so soon. I take 7 min and wash afterward at least 6 min with multiple water changes. But the papers themselves have dramatically improved over the years.

Some beginner questions about RA4 printing

Stanislaw

koraks

Moderator

DREW WILEY

Stanislaw

koraks

Moderator

DREW WILEY

koraks

Moderator

sillo

DREW WILEY

Sirius Glass

mshchem

DREW WILEY

Steve@f8

koraks

Moderator

MattKing

Moderator

Steve@f8

Algo después

koraks

Moderator

foc

Mick Fagan

DREW WILEY

Some beginner questions about RA4 printing

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency