Software recommendations

Either my search skills are weak (possible) or there's not a lot of discussion, at least not recent, about what software to use in a hybrid workflow. Shooting on film, process the negs, then scan them in... now what? Now I need to create and manage an image library, and do some basic post-processing of raw (or jpeg) files to then print them. Preferably that will be in one unified software suite, but not necessarily. And I'd really like something open source and Linux compatible, I have Macs but don't want to be locked into Apple's walled garden any worse than I already am!

There are a few programs out there that I've heard of, or just see in some searching, but I'd like to learn what folks here use. Darktable, digiKam, RawTherapee and maybe showfoto seem to do what I need, and I'll probably try them all over time. But if I can get some advice and pointers here while I do, that should make things a lot easier.

So, share what you do and let's see what I can find out!

Thanks all

"...create and manage an image library, and do some basic post-processing of raw (or jpeg) files to then print them. Preferably that will be in one unified software suite."

Adobe Lightroom is what I use and recommend. It will do an excellent job of everything you want to do. There are many other softwares that will do a very good job for some of what you want to do, but I think few can match Lightroom for both cataloging and editing. I don't do any home printing, but those who do say Lightroom's printing capabilities are very good, too.

Big question: Are you working with color negatives? If not, then life is good, and read no more.

But if so, then converting the color negatives to positives is one of the hardest steps. Depending on what scanner you use, sometimes (but not always) the software that came with the scanner can do a pretty good job of converting color negatives. You can convert color negatives in Lightroom or Photoshop without any additional software, but expect to spend a fair amount of time learning how to get the colors right. You may or may not need additional software to help get good color with color negative film. This kind of software is sometimes available as a plug-in. Two of the most powerful plug-ins are ColorPerfect, which only works with Photoshop - and Negative Lab Pro, which only works with Lightroom. If you opt for the Adobe Photography Plan, then your subscription includes both Lightroom and Photoshop, so no worries.

runswithsizzers said:

"...create and manage an image library, and do some basic post-processing of raw (or jpeg) files to then print them. Preferably that will be in one unified software suite."

Adobe Lightroom is what I use and recommend. It will do an excellent job of everything you want to do. There are many other softwares that will do a very good job for some of what you want to do, but I think few can match Lightroom for both cataloging and editing. I don't do any home printing, but those who do say Lightroom's printing capabilities are very good, too.

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Yes, Lightroom is the big kid on the block, but I have issues with Adobe's licensing and privacy models. [1] I also prefer to use Linux when I can, both at work and home.

90% black and white though, at first, but I'll be getting back in to some color work eventually.

[1] Their recent "opt in by default" of anything users store in their cloud services for use in AI training sets or other, unspecified, content analysis. That's a big "no" for me.

madsox said:

Yes, Lightroom is the big kid on the block, but I have issues with Adobe's licensing and privacy models. [1] I also prefer to use Linux when I can, both at work and home.

90% black and white though, at first, but I'll be getting back in to some color work eventually.

[1] Their recent "opt in by default" of anything users store in their cloud services for use in AI training sets or other, unspecified, content analysis. That's a big "no" for me.

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I understand. It's worth mentioning that Adobe users are under no obligation to use Adobe cloud services, so that issue is easily avoided.

Good luck with your search, and please take a minute to report back when you have found something that works for you. I would be curious to learn what photo editing / cataloging software is available for Linux, in case Apple products get so expensive I can no longer afford them.

runswithsizzers said:

I understand. It's worth mentioning that Adobe users are under no obligation to use Adobe cloud services, so that issue is easily avoided.

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True. I mainly don't like the attitude companies show when they do things like that "opt in by default" on privacy matters. It's most of them, unfortunately.

runswithsizzers said:

Good luck with your search, and please take a minute to report back when you have found something that works for you. I would be curious to learn what photo editing / cataloging software is available for Linux, in case Apple products get so expensive I can no longer afford them.

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I'll post notes as I go along - nice work, by the way, took a quick look at your smugmug.

@madsox Thanks! And a request for clarification:

You mention having both Apple and Linux computers; are you wanting software recommendations for either platform, or only for Linux?

The reason I ask is, recent versions of Apple's "Photos" software do an OK job of editing and cataloging. It's no Lightroom, but it's free, easy to use, and you already own it.

Oh - yes, I have Apple stuff, but my serious hardware is running Linux. I have one old Power Mac, for example, that wouldn't be able to run anything close to current OS levels in Mac OS, but I have a linux distro on there and it's super fast that way. That one is probably 15 years old now, but still going strong (new hard drives and added some RAM and that's all it needed).

I'm also trying to get out of vendor lock-in world. And save money on software subscriptions.

I use Linux, and edit photos in Gimp.
For managing my library of photos, I use the file manager that came with my distro. Actually, I use Thunar because it's fast with huge folders. I'm careful with how I organize and name folders. The only problem with this file-manager approach is that one can "index" folders in only one way, typically by subject-matter (e.g., "Henry"), or event (e.g., "Reunion"), or by date. But I like the advantage of *not* being tied to a program that might vanish in the future.

Mark

For Linux, Corel's Aftershot Pro is a reasonable alternative to Lightroom.
The license you obtain permits use with Linux, or Windows, or Mac.
Unfortunately, Corel's Paintshop Pro is not available in a Linux or Mac version.
Here is a link to the Aftershot Pro web info: Aftershot Pro Link
And here is a screenshot from my installation

runswithsizzers said:

"...create and manage an image library, and do some basic post-processing of raw (or jpeg) files to then print them. Preferably that will be in one unified software suite."

Adobe Lightroom is what I use and recommend. It will do an excellent job of everything you want to do. There are many other softwares that will do a very good job for some of what you want to do, but I think few can match Lightroom for both cataloging and editing. I don't do any home printing, but those who do say Lightroom's printing capabilities are very good, too.

Big question: Are you working with color negatives? If not, then life is good, and read no more.

But if so, then converting the color negatives to positives is one of the hardest steps. Depending on what scanner you use, sometimes (but not always) the software that came with the scanner can do a pretty good job of converting color negatives. You can convert color negatives in Lightroom or Photoshop without any additional software, but expect to spend a fair amount of time learning how to get the colors right. You may or may not need additional software to help get good color with color negative film. This kind of software is sometimes available as a plug-in. Two of the most powerful plug-ins are ColorPerfect, which only works with Photoshop - and Negative Lab Pro, which only works with Lightroom. If you opt for the Adobe Photography Plan, then your subscription includes both Lightroom and Photoshop, so no worries.

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Isn't LR Classic paid version still available rather than leasing the subscription version?

I use darktable for raw processing and global edits. I really like it. I think it goes toe to toe with Lightroom. Lots of tutorials on the "tube" too. The best thing is that it doesn't put your images into those stupid libraries like Lightroom. Darktable keeps your files in their directories and adds an xml file to any edited image so you never loose the original. I use Photoshop and Gimp, I like them both for final edits.

Your mileage may vary. Good luck.

D.

Alan Edward Klein said:

Isn't LR Classic paid version still available rather than leasing the subscription version?

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It is not.

I see 3 options:

• Adobe walled garden. You already said you don't want to go this route.
• Open source. GIMP in combination with either RawTherapee or Darktable.
• Other commercial software which doesn't insist on a subscription model.

I use all 3, and I will say right away that the Adobe platform is strictly the better option. They've been consistently ahead of everyone else for years, and their tools are nicely integrated. The quality of implementation of the healing brush, sharpening, resizing, masking, stitching, and everything else is top notch. I really like how gently they're starting to incorporate AI into their features too. What is even more important is their ecosystem of plug-ins, presets and 3rd party camera profiles.

I've been using GIMP for over 15 years now and at this point I no longer expect it to ever close the quality and usability gap vs commercial image editors. Yes, it's powerful. Yes, it has a ton of features. But I never managed to become as efficient with my time in GIMP. Everything is just a little bit wonkier, and the quality of implementation is a bit worse. Nothing major. Little things, although the absence of the adjustment layers is quite annoying. With the RAW converters I would argue that the gap vs Lightroom is even bigger, both in quality (Adobe stock profiles for supported cameras are just better, and its support for lens corrections) and it is far ahead in usability. Darktable UX in particular is extremely basic, with 99% of functionality represented as sliders stacked in a panel where even their sensitivity and range aren't optimized for usability. There's no menu and limited support for hotkeys or (surprse!) for your mouse. Sliders. Keep dragging the sliders. Great place to get a taste of the experience is to flip, crop & rotate an image to level the horizon. See how long it takes and how it's implemented. If that's OK with you, you'll have a decent chance to be happy with Darktable. I haven't tried Rawtherapee for a few years now, so I'll let other folks speak to that.

Another avenue I have explored is Capture One in combination with Affinity Photo. For RAW conversion I would actually rate Capture One as a superior solution to Lightroom, especially its support for adjustment layers, the color controls, and the collection of color presets. I love their tethering feature too, because it comes with manual focus assist which is super useful for macro work or digitizing negatives with a camera. It is available as a one-time purchase. On the negative side, I found that its color output is a bit uneven across supported cameras (Fuji is awesome, Canon is so-so). Lightroom seems to be more consistent across vendors. On the image editing side, I have been quite happy with Affinity Photo, also a one-time purchase. It beats Photoshop in terms of user interface. It is more modern and lets you do things faster, but it's closer to GIMP in terms of depth+maturity of its features, for example it still requires manual assist to the healing brush, its sharpening options aren't as sophisticated, the layers don't support some useful blending modes. It also gains and loses bugs between updates, and crashes sometimes. One more thing: Affinity Photo isn't integrated with Capture One as seamlessly as Photoshop is with Lightroom.

In my case, having all of this installed, I tend to stick to Capture One when I'm processing RAW from my digital camera, switch to the Adobe suite for digitizing the negatives where I rely on some plug-ins, and fall back to Dartable and GIMP when the pain of switching computers feels greater than the pain of enduring their UX. Like others, my best hardware runs Linux.

Sorry for the long and hectic comment, these are huge applications with nuanced pros and cons. It is really hard to generalize here but I tried. Hope it helps.

Pay heed to @Steven Lee 's comments.

Adobe's software reigns supreme in terms of effectiveness, usability and productiveness. But you pay for it, and I refuse to buy into their extortion licensing scheme because I can't justify it for my hobby use. Had I been professionally engaged in image-processing, I'd just pay up, because then it would be worth it IMO.

GIMP & Darktable or RawTherapee (I prefer the latter) works alright. Frankly, I don't see the need for either Darktable or RawTherapee unless digital camera raw files are involved. Given a decently transparent folder structure with sensible names (e.g. date followed by subject/keywords), a bunch of png's/tiff's/jpg's in folders has always worked fine for me by means of an 'indexing' system.

GIMP has come a long way in terms of usability and functionality. Especially recent UI improvements are meaningful IMO. Subjectively I'd say they're roughly at the level where Adobe was around Photoshop 7 in terms of effective productivity (features + usability/accessibility). This puts them 'only' about two decades behind Adobe. But keep in mind PS7 was already pretty usable as a photo editing tool. It's not a bad performance for something that's free to use.

The main problem with GIMP is the lack of dynamic adjustment layers. With GIMP, you're limited to making duplicates of layers and then using whatever adjustments you want in combination with masking. This removes the possibility to 'adjust the adjustments', which is a huge benefit of the Adobe approach. In terms of performance (speed, memory use), Adobe also has a fundamentally better approach IMO.

All considered, I'm quite happy with GIMP as it is, especially given the cost. But it takes some getting used to if you come from Adobe, and there's some things that Adobe will just always be better at.

RawTherapee I use only occasionally since I don't shoot all that much digital, but for me, it gets the job done and it's more packed with features than I really need. For critical digital photographers, I would suggest carefully evaluating image quality performance against e.g. CaptureOne since there are very real differences also in this area between raw converters.

brbo said:

It is not.

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I'm confused. Adobe makes two versions of Lightroom. Lightroom CC which is for photographers who need the web for processing and storage and Lightroom Classic which has more features but is used on a desktop only.

Do both require monthly fees? Can you clarify how to buy one or the other?

Alan Edward Klein said:

Do both require monthly fees? Can you clarify how to buy one or the other?

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Both are subscription based. "Both" might be the wrong word, though. You can use Lightroom Classic or Lightroom (storage in the cloud). But, Lightroom Classic is only available with Adobe Photography Plan (which includes Photoshop). If you subscribe only to Lightroom plan, then you can only use Lightroom.

Really simple, right?

Darktable worked alright when I last used it a few years ago. I have no comparison to recent iterations if other software. But in response to the person who argued that it's clumsy with the example if cropping and rotating a picture, I don't see how that could be any smoother. You can (or could) straighten a horizon by drawing a line in the picture that's supposed to be horizontal with the right mouse button pressed. Very quick.

Steven Lee said:

I see 3 options:

• Adobe walled garden. You already said you don't want to go this route.
• Open source. GIMP in combination with either RawTherapee or Darktable.
• Other commercial software which doesn't insist on a subscription model.

<snippity snip>

Sorry for the long and hectic comment, these are huge applications with nuanced pros and cons. It is really hard to generalize here but I tried. Hope it helps.

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Oh, it does!

koraks said:

Pay heed to @Steven Lee 's comments.

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Two thumbs up.

koraks said:

GIMP & Darktable or RawTherapee (I prefer the latter) works alright. Frankly, I don't see the need for either Darktable or RawTherapee unless digital camera raw files are involved. Given a decently transparent folder structure with sensible names (e.g. date followed by subject/keywords), a bunch of png's/tiff's/jpg's in folders has always worked fine for me by means of an 'indexing' system.

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Quoted this bit because, honestly, thinking about how much I shoot now (ahem. Not very much) and am likely to (more, but still it's just a hobby)... organizing the files as I go is likely to be all I need for an "image management system".

My post processing is probably going to be limited to tuning exposure for printing (adjust the highlights and shadows, etc), so any of the packages will be able to do more than I'll need to learn how to use. I don't now if I'll be getting much into color, or "serious" digital work, those might change what I use but to be realistic? Probably not.

I'm loving the interaction and information here, though! Learning from more experienced and skilled people is always a treat.

Thanks for all the great viewpoints and options. Until recently I used Lightroom and Photoshop through the university classes I was taking and, of course, they are formidable tools, but I found that I didn’t need 90% of what they had. At home I run Windows and Mac and have used GIMP for years and have played around with Darktable but my post-processing needs are pretty light.

As I spent the part of the last year or two scanning all my film from the past 40 years what I really needed was cataloging software that allows me to search by date or subject so that I can physically locate an image in my files. What I ended up doing was writing my own. As I save my scanned images, they are given directories names with book, page, date, and descriptions. My software lets me search by those fields and opens a page that looks like a contact sheet and clicking on an image enlarges it. Image tagging is the next feature I am including.

I write this in PHP and MySQL and it runs on my internal web server. BTW, all my music is also on the same server so I can call for it when I’m in the darkroom.

madsox said:

My post processing is probably going to be limited to tuning exposure for printing

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Inkjet? In this case, it's important to know that GIMP's printing interface is so bad that they might as well have omitted it altogether. Not that it's a dealbreaker per se. What I often do is edit in GIMP and then use any other app for the actual printing. This can be QuadToneRip, IrfanView or even the Epson Print Layout that came with my printer's software.

Adobe's printing interface is light years beyond that of GIMP. Not only does it work for all the basics, it evidently also has full PostScript support, which can be important in some applications.

I tried to switch to Linux a few years ago but found that programs for specialized things such as music composition and photo editing were just not up to par. I even tried building a Linux computer just for doing my writing, but if I got into any specialized organization programs such as Scrivener, they just didn’t work properly. I wish it were different.

brbo said:

Both are subscription based. "Both" might be the wrong word, though. You can use Lightroom Classic or Lightroom (storage in the cloud). But, Lightroom Classic is only available with Adobe Photography Plan (which includes Photoshop). If you subscribe only to Lightroom plan, then you can only use Lightroom.

Really simple, right?

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I'm using LR V6 purchased version which is years old with no new updates. It gets the job done for web and photo slide shows.

VinceInMT said:

Thanks for all the great viewpoints and options. Until recently I used Lightroom and Photoshop through the university classes I was taking and, of course, they are formidable tools, but I found that I didn’t need 90% of what they had. At home I run Windows and Mac and have used GIMP for years and have played around with Darktable but my post-processing needs are pretty light.

As I spent the part of the last year or two scanning all my film from the past 40 years what I really needed was cataloging software that allows me to search by date or subject so that I can physically locate an image in my files. What I ended up doing was writing my own. As I save my scanned images, they are given directories names with book, page, date, and descriptions. My software lets me search by those fields and opens a page that looks like a contact sheet and clicking on an image enlarges it. Image tagging is the next feature I am including.

I write this in PHP and MySQL and it runs on my internal web server. BTW, all my music is also on the same server so I can call for it when I’m in the darkroom.

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So Vince, why do you need anything of you already use something?

koraks said:

Inkjet? In this case, it's important to know that GIMP's printing interface is so bad that they might as well have omitted it altogether. Not that it's a dealbreaker per se. What I often do is edit in GIMP and then use any other app for the actual printing. This can be QuadToneRip, IrfanView or even the Epson Print Layout that came with my printer's software.

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Yes, inkjet. Pointers noted, thanks again!

madsox said:

True. I mainly don't like the attitude companies show when they do things like that "opt in by default" on privacy matters. It's most of them, unfortunately.

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I'm not thrilled to engage Adobe with their "pay as you go" model, but I have used Lightroom for many years and I will persist in doing so, even though I object to their payment model. (get used to it: they will all be doing this eventually)
What I will say is this: if you opt for a "free" alternative, don't be surprised if you find out you are paying for it in other ways, RE: privacy, etc. There's no such thing as "free" in the software environment.