Sodium hydroxide enriched developer (lith look-a-like) - No luck!

medicineman29 · Mar 21, 2020

I recently acquired a copy of Tim Rudman's 'The Master photographer's Lith Printing Course' & tried out the sodium hydroxide enriched developer process (pg 100 if you have a copy).

I followed the method identically. I added 5g of sodium hydroxide to Ilford PQ (diluted 1:19), mixed well & maintained 20 deg temp throughout the testing.

I began with Ilford MG V RC which, being RC, I appreciate probably isn't a great choice for this purpose, but it allowed me to do a quick test & also this paper has reacted favourably in other processes (Selenium, sepia etc.). Nothing different happened other than slower development. I moved to Ilford FB gloss (the actual paper used in the book); again nothing happened any different from standard developing.

So I tried adding more sodium hydroxide, adding 5g, testing, adding a further 5g, testing again & so on; this again changed nothing. As a last resort I tried diluting the developer even further, again this didn't work.

So now I am puzzled, I would really like to get this to work successfully. The only thing I can think of is that Ilford FB has since been updated & no longer works for this purpose. I'd love to hear any suggestions before I try buying another brand/type of paper to experiment with.

Rudeofus · Mar 21, 2020

The biggest problem with Tim Rudman's books is, that it mostly writes about photographic papers, which no longer exist. I wasted two long darkroom sessions to a recalcitrant batch of Fomatone MG, until I discovered by chance, that its emulsion had changed.

Here is what you should do:

get Tim Rudman's latest update to his lith printing book
check out Moersch's gallery for lith results you try to replicate. Each paper reacts differently, and the most appealing papers have been discontinued years ago.
check out Ashley <3's blog for very current research into lith process. Jordan also started several thread about this topic here.
get a stash of paper which is positively known to give appealing results. Most currently sold papers do not. Foma brought back their old Fomatone MG under the name "Fomatone MG Classic".
get a known good lith developer, or mix one yourself. I had terrific results with Fomatone MG Classic and Kodalith diluted 1+30 - 1+40.

Be prepared for surprises. Lith printing is some kind of black magic, you never really know what you get, until you hold a dry print in your hand. You will get some paper and mix some developer, then see results. This is what you will get, now fetch your binder with negatives and pick one which works well with the results you just got.

grainyvision · Mar 22, 2020

Hey that's me However, I'd start with this reference guide (I need to put some huge disclaimers on that article you linked actually) https://grainy.vision/blog/modernlith and this guide if you want to try formulating your own developer https://grainy.vision/blog/in-the-margins-formulating-a-lith-developer

And yes, I'm right on the cusp of publishing a 3 part ModernLithC1 formula, and eventually selling a kit of the formula with some premixed components. This virus kinda put a damper on the idea of shipping it, but I've decided I'll publish the formula anyway. It's very similar to the base ModernLith formula published on my blog so that's a good starting point, the painful bit being that ascorbic acid takes a long time to dissolve in glycol (4% isn't too bad, but 8% takes like 45 minutes of heating and stirring).

Otherwise though, what Rudeofus said is exactly right. Tim Rudman's book is priceless for learning the process and what it is capable of and find some cheap expired paper if you don't want to mix your own developer. Watch craigslist and other local markets for darkroom clear outs and buy literally any old paper you can get for cheap. Not all old papers work, but honestly I've found most papers before 2000 (excluding Ilford papers) can work with lith to some extent. Fomatone MG Classic is definitely the absolute bees knees for modern papers compatible with lith. It tends to give moderate grain and olive tones, but with developer experiments it can produce anything from orange to reds to brown. It also develops pretty fast for lith and actually makes really nice prints even if not lith printing. For normal printing it is very responsive to developer choice.

Rudeofus · Mar 22, 2020

Here is an attachment with an example of Fonatone MG Classic souped in Kodalith 1+30. I see strong yellow/orange colors, but very little sign of real infectious development. I did some experiments with a very simple developer based on Jordan's concepts (1g HQ, 10g Sodium Carbonate, 5g Trisodium Phosphate) and did get infectious development plus nice colors, although that developer lasted just barely over an hour.

mohmad khatab · Mar 24, 2020

AGFA S.W
Deionized or distilled water 700ml ( 52 C)
Calgon...............................0.5g
Metol ................................. 1g
sod. sulfite...........................40 g
H.Q.......................................6 g
sod.carbonate..................... 21 g
pot. or sod. bromide............. 1 g
pot. or sod.metabisulfite......1.5g
Citric acid ........................... 0.5g
water Up to 1 L
4 >> 6 min @ 18C ( Stirring continuously does not stop at 40 RPM )

medicineman29 · Apr 11, 2020

Rudeofus said:
The biggest problem with Tim Rudman's books is, that it mostly writes about photographic papers, which no longer exist. I wasted two long darkroom sessions to a recalcitrant batch of Fomatone MG, until I discovered by chance, that its emulsion had changed.

Here is what you should do:

get Tim Rudman's latest update to his lith printing book

check out Moersch's gallery for lith results you try to replicate. Each paper reacts differently, and the most appealing papers have been discontinued years ago.

check out Jordan Earls' blog for very current research into lith process. Jordan also started several thread about this topic here.

get a stash of paper which is positively known to give appealing results. Most currently sold papers do not. Foma brought back their old Fomatone MG under the name "Fomatone MG Classic".

get a known good lith developer, or mix one yourself. I had terrific results with Fomatone MG Classic and Kodalith diluted 1+30 - 1+40.

Be prepared for surprises. Lith printing is some kind of black magic, you never really know what you get, until you hold a dry print in your hand. You will get some paper and mix some developer, then see results. This is what you will get, now fetch your binder with negatives and pick one which works well with the results you just got.

Hi, apologies for the extremely late reply and many thanks for the informative response. I have since ditched the sodium hydroxide and picked up some Fomatone MG Classic & some easy lith, needless to say I have been very satisfied with the results as well.

medicineman29 · Apr 11, 2020

earlz said:
Hey that's me However, I'd start with this reference guide (I need to put some huge disclaimers on that article you linked actually) https://grainy.vision/blog/modernlith and this guide if you want to try formulating your own developer https://grainy.vision/blog/in-the-margins-formulating-a-lith-developer

And yes, I'm right on the cusp of publishing a 3 part ModernLithC1 formula, and eventually selling a kit of the formula with some premixed components. This virus kinda put a damper on the idea of shipping it, but I've decided I'll publish the formula anyway. It's very similar to the base ModernLith formula published on my blog so that's a good starting point, the painful bit being that ascorbic acid takes a long time to dissolve in glycol (4% isn't too bad, but 8% takes like 45 minutes of heating and stirring).

Otherwise though, what Rudeofus said is exactly right. Tim Rudman's book is priceless for learning the process and what it is capable of and find some cheap expired paper if you don't want to mix your own developer. Watch craigslist and other local markets for darkroom clear outs and buy literally any old paper you can get for cheap. Not all old papers work, but honestly I've found most papers before 2000 (excluding Ilford papers) can work with lith to some extent. Fomatone MG Classic is definitely the absolute bees knees for modern papers compatible with lith. It tends to give moderate grain and olive tones, but with developer experiments it can produce anything from orange to reds to brown. It also develops pretty fast for lith and actually makes really nice prints even if not lith printing. For normal printing it is very responsive to developer choice.

My apologies for the insanely late reply but thanks for getting back to me. I can now agree with you, I just ran through a box of 50 Fomatone MG Classic in Easylith and got a number of extremely satisfying prints!

grainyvision · Apr 11, 2020

Fomatone MG Classic is definitely the absolute bees knees of modern papers in regards to Lith printing. It's also capable of a lot of different tones. I've seen it across the spectrum depending on how you develop it. From brown and olives to peach and almost reds. It also gives good convincing blacks in most of these, and in general is just an absolute breeze to work with. I just wish it were a bit cheaper

medicineman29 · Apr 12, 2020

earlz said:
Fomatone MG Classic is definitely the absolute bees knees of modern papers in regards to Lith printing. It's also capable of a lot of different tones. I've seen it across the spectrum depending on how you develop it. From brown and olives to peach and almost reds. It also gives good convincing blacks in most of these, and in general is just an absolute breeze to work with. I just wish it were a bit cheaper

Agreed, after the lith printing was over I had some left over MG Classic which I printed in the normal manner then toned in Selenium - all I can say is I'm blown away by the beauty of it, a lovely reddy brown. But yes, it's not cheap.

tezzasmall · Jun 16, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
AGFA S.W
Deionized or distilled water 700ml ( 52 C)
Calgon...............................0.5g
Metol ................................. 1g
sod. sulfite...........................40 g
H.Q.......................................6 g
sod.carbonate..................... 21 g
pot. or sod. bromide............. 1 g
pot. or sod.metabisulfite......1.5g
Citric acid ........................... 0.5g
water Up to 1 L
4 >> 6 min @ 18C ( Stirring continuously does not stop at 40 RPM )

Resurrecting this thread, as I'm currently trying out various lith formulas.

But, I can't seem to find any info on the above members formula post, searching with 'Agfa S. W'

I'll get around to trying it out, but is it a lith print developer that anyone else has heard of, or used?

Many thanks,

Terry S

koraks · Jun 16, 2021

tezzasmall said:
I'll get around to trying it out, but is it a lith print developer that anyone else has heard of, or used?

No, it's an MQ developer by the looks of the formula. It won't lith. I don't know why it was posted in this thread. For lith, you're looking for a developer that typically only uses hydroquinone as a developing agent. As soon as metol is thrown into the mix, it won't lith anymore.

mohmad khatab · Jun 17, 2021

koraks said:
No, it's an MQ developer by the looks of the formula. It won't lith. I don't know why it was posted in this thread. For lith, you're looking for a developer that typically only uses hydroquinone as a developing agent. As soon as metol is thrown into the mix, it won't lith anymore.

Generally, the developer is based on hydroquinone mainly and the amount of metol is only one gram in order to cause a reaction to aid the development.
Actually this is a very old topic.
I haven't tried this developer in print, but there
Someone tried it in print and wrote his personal blog about him, in fact I don't remember this person or that blog, but what I do remember is that this post impressed me so much that I wrote that formula in my black notebook.

koraks · Jun 18, 2021

I don't doubt it will develop paper just fine, but lith development is not the same as regular paper development.

Sodium hydroxide enriched developer (lith look-a-like) - No luck!

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