Sodium Carbonate and Ansco 130

Arelia99 · Oct 22, 2006

I recently decided to try some warmtone papers and so, along with this I would like to try Ansco 130 developer. I was looking at what is needed to make it my self and I have most of what I need. The Darkroom Cookbook formula for Ansco 130 calls for Sodium Carbonate, monohydrate. It also says, under the description for sodium carbonate that most of the time a balanced Alkali (ieKodalk) can be used for carbonate. So before I buy Sodium Carbonate, monohydrate I was wondering,

Could Sodium Metaborate (Kodalk balancd Alkali) be used instead of Sodium Carbonate, monohydrate in the formula for Ansco 130?

This is all new to me so I hope this question is understandable!

(I did a search and could not find this information in the archives!)

Many thanks!
Nancy

Ole · Oct 22, 2006

Most of the time, sodium metaborate can not be substituted for sodium carbonate. I don't know where they got the idea of writing that!

Sodium carbonate monohyrate is a lot easier to get hold of, and a lot cheaper too. Arm&Hammer washing soda is one of the usual names for it.

BradS · Oct 22, 2006

Sodium Carbonate is readily available....it can be made from Sodium Bicarbonate (ordinary baking soda) simply by cooking it in an oven for an hour or so at 350~400 degrees F. It's cheap and very pure this way too.

Pour out a one pound box of baking soda into a glass baking dish.
bake in an oven at 350-400 degrees F for one hour
stir every 10 to 15 minutes.
let cool.

If you start with 454 grams (one pound) of Sodium Bi-Carbonate, you should end up with 292 grams (or, is it 262 ? sorry, I forget) of sodium carbonate.

The product is Sodium Carbonate anhydrous which, if left exposed to the air for a week or so, will pick up water from the air and become monohydrate.

gainer · Oct 22, 2006

I have wondered ever since A & H quit selling the old washing soda that we used for cleaning radiators, etc, which was Na2CO3 + 10 H2O, why it is now claimed to be the monohydrate in its resurrected form. The CRC Handbook says that the decahydrate is washing soda. I have not been able to get the A & H Washing Soda, so cannot test it. It is easier for me to get the pHPlus for adjusting pH of swimming pools. It is close enough to anhydrous for government work. In any case, as long as you know what you have, you can use more or less than the recipe calls for. In a developer like Ansco 130 or D-72, you will probably not notice the difference between anhydrous and monohydrated, but will see a difference between monohydrated and the true washing soda, as the ratio of molecular weights is 2.31. You need 2.31 times the weight of what CRC calls washing soda as of monohydrated sodium carbonate. The difference is water, of course.

Arelia99 · Oct 22, 2006

Thanks everyone!

So you think it might be possible to substitute PhPlus for sodium carbonate in the same amount Ansco 130 calls for?

As a side thought is Glycin always so costly?

Thanks again!
Nancy

gainer said:
I have wondered ever since A & H quit selling the old washing soda that we used for cleaning radiators, etc, which was Na2CO3 + 10 H2O, why it is now claimed to be the monohydrate in its resurrected form. The CRC Handbook says that the decahydrate is washing soda. I have not been able to get the A & H Washing Soda, so cannot test it. It is easier for me to get the pHPlus for adjusting pH of swimming pools. It is close enough to anhydrous for government work. In any case, as long as you know what you have, you can use more or less than the recipe calls for. In a developer like Ansco 130 or D-72, you will probably not notice the difference between anhydrous and monohydrated, but will see a difference between monohydrated and the true washing soda, as the ratio of molecular weights is 2.31. You need 2.31 times the weight of what CRC calls washing soda as of monohydrated sodium carbonate. The difference is water, of course.

Maine-iac · Oct 22, 2006

Arelia99 said:
I recently decided to try some warmtone papers and so, along with this I would like to try Ansco 130 developer. I was looking at what is needed to make it my self and I have most of what I need. The Darkroom Cookbook formula for Ansco 130 calls for Sodium Carbonate, monohydrate. It also says, under the description for sodium carbonate that most of the time a balanced Alkali (ieKodalk) can be used for carbonate. So before I buy Sodium Carbonate, monohydrate I was wondering,

Could Sodium Metaborate (Kodalk balancd Alkali) be used instead of Sodium Carbonate, monohydrate in the formula for Ansco 130?

This is all new to me so I hope this question is understandable!

(I did a search and could not find this information in the archives!)

Many thanks!
Nancy

I've used Arm & Hammer Washing Soda (yellow box in your supermarket household cleaner/laundry detergent section) in Ansco 125 and 130 with perfect results. In fact I use it for all my paper developers, and in my experience there is no practical difference between the monohydrate and decahydrate versions. If you leave the monohydrate version exposed to air (after you open it) it will eventually turn into the decahydrate version anyway.

pH Plus, available at swimming pool stores will work well too. Same stuff basically.

Larry

jim appleyard · Oct 22, 2006

Yes, to the best of my knowledge, glycin is always expensive. It's only available in N. America thru the Formulary. The plus side is that once mixed as a developer, it lasts a rather long time.

I believe Ole has been using the same batch of 130 for about 20 years now

Murray@uptowngallery · Oct 22, 2006

I just got some pH+ pool stuff to have available for some developer project, as yet undetermined.

From the above discussion I conclude that somewhere between today and the future, I could have di, tri, tetra, penta, hexa or who knows how many hydrate...or maybe it skips the even ones...

Thanks

Murray

juan · Oct 22, 2006

The idea the Arm and Hammer is mono came from a post on Michael and Paula's site a couple of years ago. Someone contacted Arm and Hammer and got the information directly from the company. I, too, use the washing soda in 130, and as the B solution in the Pyrocat developers. Works just fine for me.
juan

DeanC · Oct 22, 2006

Arelia99 said:
As a side thought is Glycin always so costly?

If you don't already have the glycin then, given its lousy keeping qualities dry, it might be easier to just buy the 130 kits from the Photo Formulary. Once it's mixed up it keeps really well (I'm still printing from a batch I mixed up in April). Just a thought...

Alan Davenport · Oct 22, 2006

I store my Glycin in the freezer with my films and papers. There it keeps for many months.

Alan

dancqu · Oct 23, 2006

Ole said:
Most of the time, sodium metaborate can
not be substituted for sodium carbonate.

I think that more so the fact where Glycine is involved.
Glycine is some what the same as hydroquinone in needing
a high ph for activation. TSP is used in at least one Glycine
only print developer. There are a few Glycine film developers
which use carbonate. So I think it accurate to say that
if Glycine is to participate it must have the high ph a
carbonate can supply. Dan

gainer · Oct 23, 2006

Maine-iac said:
I've used Arm & Hammer Washing Soda (yellow box in your supermarket household cleaner/laundry detergent section) in Ansco 125 and 130 with perfect results. In fact I use it for all my paper developers, and in my experience there is no practical difference between the monohydrate and decahydrate versions. If you leave the monohydrate version exposed to air (after you open it) it will eventually turn into the decahydrate version anyway.

pH Plus, available at swimming pool stores will work well too. Same stuff basically.

Larry

I think you have that backwards. The monohydrate is the most stable. Leaving either the decahydrate or the anhydrous open to air will eventually lead to the monohydrate. You could heat the decahydrate to anhydrous state, but that's a waste of power when you can more easily use 2.3 times as much. For some reason, I have not been able to get the washing soda locally.
If you're really worried, you can get the anhydrous from www.chemistrystore.com, as well as some of the other chemicals you might be using. As you said, pHPlus is also good. Depending on how much you plan to use, it might be cheaper to get it from the Chemistry Store.

Gerald Koch · Oct 23, 2006

Arelia99 said:
The Darkroom Cookbook ...

There are many errors and misconceptions in the Anchell books. Whenever possible I would suggest going back to the original source before making and using a formula.

Will S · Oct 23, 2006

Here is a link to the doc with the original formula. They show monohydrated.

Dead Link Removed

This used to be on apug somewhere (maybe in the articles).

I think the original post mentioned wanting to do warmtone. I would suggest trying the new Ilford warmtone developer. Personally, I find Ansco 130 diluted 1:2 to be OK as a soft developer, but for warmtone I really like the new Ilford.

Best,

Will

DeanC · Oct 23, 2006

Alan Davenport said:
I store my Glycin in the freezer with my films and papers. There it keeps for many months.

It's probably baseless paranoia, but storing chemistry in the same fridge as my food bothers me in a way that storing film and paper just doesn't...

Murray@uptowngallery · Oct 24, 2006

DeanC -

Not baseless paranoia - just being smart...accidents happen, and things unknown to non-chemists happen.

A local pharmaceutical company was trying to catch whatever employee was 'stealing' hundreds of gallons of chemicals. They couldn't figure out how it was being removed. Eventually the morons figured out it was evaporating - hopefully the employees weren't all guilty of inhaling.

BradS · Oct 24, 2006

Found sodium carbonate at the local OSH - Orchard Supply Hardware (big chain but, not big box) in the pool and hot-tub isle. The prduct is "pH Plus" from Spa-Kem / Kem-Tek http://www.kem-tek.com/. The label claims "100% Sodium Carbonate". I think it was about $6 for two pounds. Almost, twice the cost of making your own by cooking baking soda.

lee · Oct 24, 2006

Arm and Hammer washing soda is 100% sodium carb and it is about 3 dollars for 2 lbs at the grocery story in the area where the clothes washing soap is. Yellow box.

lee\c

BradS · Oct 24, 2006

lee said:
Arm and Hammer washing soda is 100% sodium carb and it is about 3 dollars for 2 lbs at the grocery story in the area where the clothes washing soap is. Yellow box.

lee\c

That's about as good as it gets lee. Although I've looked many times and at several different stores in the area, I've not found A&H washing soda locally. Plenty of Borax, even some sodium hydroxide now and then but, no washing soda...weird.

gainer · Oct 24, 2006

Not here in WV either. Anyway, I got 25 lbs from the Chemistry Store at about $1.25 / lb. They have K2CO3 also.

juan · Oct 24, 2006

Amazon sells the A&H Washing Soda. Not sure if it's cost effective. Publix supermarkets have it in the southeast US.
juan

mikebarger · Apr 21, 2007

I don't see the arm and Hammer locally, is 20 mule team the same?

Mike

lee · Apr 21, 2007

borax is the only thing I have ever seen from 20 mule teams and that is very close to Kodalk or sodium metaborate. it is not the same as washing powder.

lee\c

juan · Apr 21, 2007

20-mule team is not the same.
juan

Sodium Carbonate and Ansco 130

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