Soaking Tmax 120 400 film in water - how long is safe?

[pentaxuser]

I have a bit of a problem on which a quick answer would be very helpful. I pre-wet some TMY 400 in water to get rid of the anti-halation dye and was then about to develop when I noticed that my Xtol has turned a pale straw colour. I was able to develop a leader such that it did turn black but I fear not as black as it should. I don't want to take a chance and develop with it if I can avoid it.
I really don't have the time tonight to make up fresh so my question is: Is it better to leave the film immersed in water until I can make up fresh Xtol tomorrow and then develop or empty the tank of water with the risk that some remnants of water remain on the film surface and slowly dry there in the hours between tonight and tomorrow night or in fact will all the water just run off the film and it will be OK?

If the best solution is to carry on and develop then can I compensate for what is less than a 100% developer by extending development

Frankly I am hoping to delay if at all possible

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[relistan]

I have a bit of a problem on which a quick answer would be very helpful. I pre-wet some TMY 400 in water to get rid of the anti-halation dye and was then about to develop when I noticed that my Xtol has turned a pale straw colour. I was able to develop a leader such that it did turn black but I fear not as black as it should. I don't want to take a chance and develop with it if I can avoid it.
I really don't have the time tonight to make up fresh so my question is: Is it better to leave the film immersed in water until I can make up fresh Xtol tomorrow and then develop or empty the tank of water with the risk that some remnants of water remain on the film surface and slowly dry there in the hours between tonight and tomorrow night or in fact will all the water just run off the film and it will be OK?

If the best solution is to carry on and develop then can I compensate for what is less than a 100% developer by extending development

Frankly I am hoping to delay if at all possible

Thanks

pentaxuser

I've never tried it with that film, but I have left film in water overnight to no ill effect. I would guess you will be fine. Better than drying it and wetting it again I think.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Presoak for five minutes only. I change the water in the Jobo twice a minute for five minute, however changing the water once a minute will do the job. The water should be the same temperature as the developer so that the film does not have thermal shock which in the extreme causes reticulation. I would not leave the film in water longer than five minutes. It you must leave it in the tank overnight, drain the water out and shake the tank to loosen any drops.

 

[MattKing]

If I understand you correctly, you are worried that your X-Tol is expired.
How long has it been mixed up?
X-Tol in my experience doesn't really fade - it dies.

 

[pentaxuser]

If I understand you correctly, you are worried that your X-Tol is expired.
How long has it been mixed up?
X-Tol in my experience doesn't really fade - it dies.

Thanks all so far I now have 2 almost completely opposite answers which I feared might happen but is a pity

Matt my experience with Xtol is that it does not die a sudden death but now on two occasions different batches have shown the same symptoms of a pale straw colour which will develop film to an OK but probably to a substandard level based on the leader test which in my case is: Does it reduce the tungsten wire in a 100W bulb to a clearly defined orange line? My Xtol in question still does that and frankly to a pretty good level but the pale straw colour worries me. I mixed this up in March of 2019 but it is kept in a winebag in a box

I should have check on its colour before soaking the TMY but the die is cast.

On balance it sounds as if Sirius' advice may be favourite I can shake the tank and then place it in a print cabinet that blows ambient air into the top so in theory any water remaining on the surface of the film should dry

What's your opinion It goes without saying that whatever solution I take, all consequences are mine and mine alone

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

I would add 25% time and develop your wet film.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks all for your speedy responses and Matt for his latest reply

pentaxuser

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I've soaked Rollie IR film in distilled water to rid it of its AH layer, dried it, and then loaded it in holders and shot it. Looks fine to me. A few drops of photo-flo wouldn't hurt, either.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Or you could just follow Matt's advice, and extend the development time. Decisions decisions, eh?!

 

[Rick A]

I have a bit of a problem on which a quick answer would be very helpful. I pre-wet some TMY 400 in water to get rid of the anti-halation dye and was then about to develop when I noticed that my Xtol has turned a pale straw colour. I was able to develop a leader such that it did turn black but I fear not as black as it should. I don't want to take a chance and develop with it if I can avoid it.
I really don't have the time tonight to make up fresh so my question is: Is it better to leave the film immersed in water until I can make up fresh Xtol tomorrow and then develop or empty the tank of water with the risk that some remnants of water remain on the film surface and slowly dry there in the hours between tonight and tomorrow night or in fact will all the water just run off the film and it will be OK?

If the best solution is to carry on and develop then can I compensate for what is less than a 100% developer by extending development

Frankly I am hoping to delay if at all possible

Thanks

pentaxuser

Drain the water and let the film dry until you are ready to develop. Excessive soaking could cause serious issues with the emulsion.

 

[pentaxuser]

Drain the water and let the film dry until you are ready to develop. Excessive soaking could cause serious issues with the emulsion.

Rick has summed up my fears about leaving it in water for what might be 18 hours before I can attempt another process with fresh Xtol so I did what Sirius was the first to suggest and a couple of you have mentioned I have dried the film in a print dryer with the fan at ambient temp and hopefully have now got a dry film to have another go at

Thanks all and I will let you know by tomorrow night, I hope, what the outcome is.

pentaxuser

 

[NB23]

Damned anti-halation layer! If only it wasn’t colored, people wouldn’t feel the need to wash it out before washing it out

Rick has summed up my fears about leaving it in water for what might be 18 hours before I can attempt another process with fresh Xtol so I did what Sirius was the first to suggest and a couple of you have mentioned I have dried the film in a print dryer with the fan at ambient temp and hopefully have now got a dry film to have another go at

Thanks all and I will let you know by tomorrow night, I hope, what the outcome is.

pentaxuser

 

[BMbikerider]

I will ask WHY on earth do you want to soak any film in water before hand? Why do you want to get rid of the anti halation layer before developing? It is there for a specific purpose before and during exposure and will be eliminated in the development process itself.

The lack of density you have experienced after soaking can, I respectfully suggest is a result of the soaking because the emulsion will have absorbed enough plain water that it will become ineffective for a short while after immersion in the developer, so effectively shortening the development time. It sounds very much as if you have an answer and looking for a problem to fit.

Kodak, Ilford, Fiji, Foma and all the other film manufactures will have spent a lot of time and money in the creation of their product and only very rarely do they get it wrong. Mess around with their recommendations and you create problems for yourself!

Adding a tiny amount of wetting agent to the developer (the prescribed amount in the correct proportion) before starting the development will serve the same purpose of a needless pre-soak.

 

[foc]

No disrespect to everyone, but I have learned to keep my opinions in check about the following.

• Pre-wash
• Stop bath
• Squeegees
• Tap dev tank or not
• Inversion V swirl
• Shooting at box speed
• Under/over exposing
• Light meter reading
• Add you own here

 

[takilmaboxer]

I soak Tmax films in water after fixing, to get rid of the purple color. I have soaked for half an hour and not had any problems. I have soaked in water up to 90 F and had no reticulation. But if I were you I wouldn't risk that long a soak, who knows, the emulsion could come off!

 

[BMbikerider]

With the extended fixing tome with Tmax 100/400 and washing for 6 x 30 seconds the film always drys clear - no tint at all

 

[Vaughn]

...It is there for a specific purpose before and during exposure and will be eliminated in the development process itself.

I suppose to get the effect of halation. Some of the effect people like with Kodak IR film (which I believe had no anti-halation layer) was the glow caused by the halation, or the reflection of light back into the film from the base during exposure, especially in the highlights...a little glow action.

 

[laser]

I have carefully read each of the posts in this string.

What is the reason for eliminating the anti-halation dye? The anti-halation layer is in the film to eliminate reflected light scatter that degrades image sharpness during exposure. Is there evidence that it in some way influences the image if it is present during development? It is water soluble so it diffuses out of the film during development. Any residual is not process surviving.

During the design stages of TMX we did make coatings with different levels of antihalation dye. Lower levels reduced sharpness. At extremely high levels there is a slight loss of speed. Beyond a given point adding additional antihalation dye has little sharpness influence. If the goal is to increase sharpness it is more effective to add dye to the emulsion to reduce scatter within the emulsion layer. An example of this is in 100-125 speed color negative films.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I will ask WHY on earth do you want to soak any film in water before hand? Why do you want to get rid of the anti halation layer before developing? It is there for a specific purpose before and during exposure and will be eliminated in the development process itself.

The lack of density you have experienced after soaking can, I respectfully suggest is a result of the soaking because the emulsion will have absorbed enough plain water that it will become ineffective for a short while after immersion in the developer, so effectively shortening the development time. It sounds very much as if you have an answer and looking for a problem to fit.

Kodak, Ilford, Fiji, Foma and all the other film manufactures will have spent a lot of time and money in the creation of their product and only very rarely do they get it wrong. Mess around with their recommendations and you create problems for yourself!

Adding a tiny amount of wetting agent to the developer (the prescribed amount in the correct proportion) before starting the development will serve the same purpose of a needless pre-soak.

He started to develop the film and was presoaking it when he realized that he needed to dump his developer and mix a new batch. The developer is mixed with very warm water and he needs it to cool before he can develop the film. But then he stated that in post 1.

 

[laser]

I should have added: each time film is wetted and dried increases the risks of adverse stress to the gelatin and other damage to the film. Kodak film manufacturing evolved to making a finished film with a single pass through a two-station the emulsion coating machine in order to reduce this risk.
www.makingKODAKfilm.com

 

[laser]

He started to develop the film and was presoaking it when he realized that he needed to dump his developer and mix a new batch. The developer is mixed with very warm water and he needs it to cool before he can develop the film. But then he stated that in post 1.

I understood the poor developer part but questioned: I pre-wet some TMY 400 in water to get rid of the anti-halation dye. Why did he need to get rid of the anti-halation dye? It is harmless as far as I know. Is there evidence that it does some damage? There may be an interaction that I am not aware of. I would not be surprised; there are many interactions that can take place and need to be avoided in film design. I am trying to learn.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I understood the poor developer part but questioned: I pre-wet some TMY 400 in water to get rid of the anti-halation dye. Why did he need to get rid of the anti-halation dye? It is harmless as far as I know. Is there evidence that it does some damage? There may be an interaction that I am not aware of. I would not be surprised; there are many interactions that can take place and need to be avoided in film design. I am trying to learn.

I do it to get rid of the dye since I reuse the developer. Also I use it to get the film to the developer temperature.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks all for the continued discussion on the whys and why not of pre-soaking. I do this pre-soak with Tmax simply because there is so much dye there It can take a few soaks and dumps with a reasonable period for it to diffuse out before it disappears.

As I normally use one shot developers then contamination of the developer is not a problem and it would seem that most of the dye disappears with the time it sits in the developer and that what remains will wash out with several flushes of plain water that I use instead of acid stop.

What I do want to avoid is enough of the dye remaining to colour the fix which I do re-use and do not want to be coloured by the dye

So studying my process as above, is the consensus that this process will eliminate all the dye or has anyone found that this still leaves enough dye behind to affect the colour of the fix?

It may even be that the fix once poured back into its bottle goes back to clear anyway over the next few hours /days even if it is slightly discoloured after removing from the tank. Is that the case?

Just to make it clear once again this whole thread was started because I had done my usual pre-soak for TMax due the large amount of dye before deciding I had better check the efficacy of my Xtol, I did and found that it failed to reduce the tungsten wire in a 100W bulb to quite the same colour as the original test leader done with Xtol when new and with which I compared it

I became nervous of using the Xtol but the film was already soaking so the die was cast I was then looking for the best solution. knowing that I didn't really have the time to mix fresh Xtol and develop.

I hope that explains the "why " and clarifies any misconceptions

Now the news. As I said I dried the film last night and developed it today and here I confess I reverted to neither making up a fresh stock of Microphen or Xtol today. Instead I used what is 16 year old Rodinal( at least that was when I bought it as clearance stock from a Jessops shop so it may have been quite a bit older ) It was still the colour of dark red wine, a bit like Burgundy, and I diluted it 1+50 when it turned almost clear with just a hint of pink. It seems to have developed just fine but I have yet to check on the grain. I am hoping it won't be too bad as it was TMY 400 in 120 but certainly draining and drying the film seems to have caused no issues so anyone else in my boat can draw some comfort that this draining and drying seems to be worth a shot.

Thanks to all for all the contributions

pentaxuser

 

[laser]

The utilization of dye technology is a significant advantage of T-grains. T-grains provide a much larger surface area sensitizing dyes.

The most effective way to remove the magenta dye is to increase fixing. The dye adheres to the surface of the AgX crystals. Fixer makes them soluble and this frees the dye so it goes into solution. Other steps can rid the dye i.e. light exposure, increasing the wash time, other treatments but fixing is the most effective.

When designing T-Max this situation was realized. The retained magenta dyes doesn't create a photographic problem; it is aesthetic. When considering all the possible impacts on processing that a new film could cause, retained dye that didn't impact anything that could be easily removed seemed harmless. I still agree with that conclusion.


,

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks laser. I never had any doubt that the dye could be removed from the film by fix as the last part of the dev, stop and fix process but it would seem from what you have said that the dye colours the fix or does " frees the dye so it goes into solution" mean that the dye's colour simply disappears in the fix which reverts to its original clear colour?

Thanks

pentaxuser