Soaking Tmax 120 400 film in water - how long is safe?

[NB23]

Thanks laser. I never had any doubt that the dye could be removed from the film by fix as the last part of the dev, stop and fix process but it would seem from what you have said that the dye colours the fix or does " frees the dye so it goes into solution" mean that the dye's colour simply disappears in the fix which reverts to its original clear colour?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Yes, the fixer goes back clear.

 

[MattKing]

And even if the fixer didn't go clear, it would merely be an aesthetic issue.
Replenished X-Tol also goes clear.

 

[Maris]

....when I noticed that my Xtol has turned a pale straw colour...pentaxuser

My 13 year old batch of replenished Xtol is definitely darker than "pale straw colour" but the last few films have developed perfectly. The standard theory is that Xtol does not show a colour change as a warning that it is about to expire.

The change in appearance is due to dyes picked from films that have been through it. Those dyes are not fully carried away by the usual replenishment rate of 70ml (or more) per film. Don't necessarily throw away what might be a nicely seasoned batch of well used Xtol before testing it.

 

[MattKing]

Maris,
I don't know that pentaxuser is replenishing. He may be just using developer slowly.

 

[mshchem]

Thanks all for the continued discussion on the whys and why not of pre-soaking. I do this pre-soak with Tmax simply because there is so much dye there It can take a few soaks and dumps with a reasonable period for it to diffuse out before it disappears.

As I normally use one shot developers then contamination of the developer is not a problem and it would seem that most of the dye disappears with the time it sits in the developer and that what remains will wash out with several flushes of plain water that I use instead of acid stop.

What I do want to avoid is enough of the dye remaining to colour the fix which I do re-use and do not want to be coloured by the dye

So studying my process as above, is the consensus that this process will eliminate all the dye or has anyone found that this still leaves enough dye behind to affect the colour of the fix?

It may even be that the fix once poured back into its bottle goes back to clear anyway over the next few hours /days even if it is slightly discoloured after removing from the tank. Is that the case?

Just to make it clear once again this whole thread was started because I had done my usual pre-soak for TMax due the large amount of dye before deciding I had better check the efficacy of my Xtol, I did and found that it failed to reduce the tungsten wire in a 100W bulb to quite the same colour as the original test leader done with Xtol when new and with which I compared it

I became nervous of using the Xtol but the film was already soaking so the die was cast I was then looking for the best solution. knowing that I didn't really have the time to mix fresh Xtol and develop.

I hope that explains the "why " and clarifies any misconceptions

Now the news. As I said I dried the film last night and developed it today and here I confess I reverted to neither making up a fresh stock of Microphen or Xtol today. Instead I used what is 16 year old Rodinal( at least that was when I bought it as clearance stock from a Jessops shop so it may have been quite a bit older ) It was still the colour of dark red wine, a bit like Burgundy, and I diluted it 1+50 when it turned almost clear with just a hint of pink. It seems to have developed just fine but I have yet to check on the grain. I am hoping it won't be too bad as it was TMY 400 in 120 but certainly draining and drying the film seems to have caused no issues so anyone else in my boat can draw some comfort that this draining and drying seems to be worth a shot.

Thanks to all for all the contributions

pentaxuser

I think you did good. I have never had a problem with aged XTOL. But Kodak stated from the rollout of XTOL that the only warning, is a slightly pale straw color to the stock solution. I found a bottle of XTOL in our broom closet, when we moved someone found a bottle under a sink in my darkroom. By the time I found it, it was 13 years old. Looked like light beer. I was getting ready to toss, but I tried it. I increased the time by 40-50% .The negatives look fine, they are slightly under developed but I was impressed.
Rodinal is cool. I still prefer XTOL but Rodinal makes brilliant snappy negatives, maybe even gives a little grain. Rodinal should be in everyone's toolkit!

 

[Sirius Glass]

I think you did good. I have never had a problem with aged XTOL. But Kodak stated from the rollout of XTOL that the only warning, is a slightly pale straw color to the stock solution. I found a bottle of XTOL in our broom closet, when we moved someone found a bottle under a sink in my darkroom. By the time I found it, it was 13 years old. Looked like light beer. I was getting ready to toss, but I tried it. I increased the time by 40-50% .The negatives look fine, they are slightly under developed but I was impressed.
Rodinal is cool. I still prefer XTOL but Rodinal makes brilliant snappy negatives, maybe even gives a little grain. Rodinal should be in everyone's toolkit!

But Kodak stated from the rollout of XTOL that the only warning, is a slightly pale straw color to the stock solution. However replenished XTOL gets straw colored and becomes darker over time.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks all again for the clarification on the dye' colour clearing in fix. I had a look at the grain tonight with Rodinal in what would have been a 8x10 print and while it didn't look bad I need to compare the negative with one developed in Xtol I'll know more when I print

While the tungsten filament test showed that my current batch of Xtol produces a brighter filament than Rodinal it was marginal and Maris' comment makes me believe that increasing dev time might compensate so maybe I need to simply increase dev time by 25 to maybe 40 % I need to do this on unimportant shots however. There may be life left in the Xtol yet

pentaxuser

 

[Rick A]

Rick has summed up my fears about leaving it in water for what might be 18 hours before I can attempt another process with fresh Xtol so I did what Sirius was the first to suggest and a couple of you have mentioned I have dried the film in a print dryer with the fan at ambient temp and hopefully have now got a dry film to have another go at

Thanks all and I will let you know by tomorrow night, I hope, what the outcome is.

pentaxuser

You only needed to drain the water and leave the film in the tank, no need to pull it out and dry it on a hanger. Soaking for extended periods could cause the emulsion to swell excessively leaving it fragile or even possibly flaking off the base. I don't know your reason for prerinse, but I do it to eliminate the possibility of air bells, and three minutes is plenty for that. Some think it's to remove the AH coating, but that is dissolved in the developer without issue. That horrible magenta color that shows up after processing needs more wash time (as well as more fix time) to flush it away.

 

[mshchem]

But Kodak stated from the rollout of XTOL that the only warning, is a slightly pale straw color to the stock solution. However replenished XTOL gets straw colored and becomes darker over time.

Yeah, I don't get too worried. I've NEVER had a problem. But if I had as many folks have, I would be wary. I haven't used replenished XTOL for some time, but when I did I used a half gallon or gallon "tank" read bottle. Never a hint of a problem. I use stock XTOL in my ridiculous, yet charming Jobo machines. To use diluted on a Jobo I would need a 4 roll tank to develop one roll, of film.
I don't think there's a better developer than XTOL, but I'm equipped with a lab propeller mixer, variable speed, ,warm purified water, 5 liter graduated beakers, hydrometers.......

All it takes for Rodinal is a small graduate, safety glasses (very strong base in concentrate). If I had limited space, with the miracle of modern fine grain films, I would just keep a pint of Rodinal, Ilford citric acid stop, and a bottle of Ilford fixer. I don't know if Adox is still paying someone to make their, original formula, Rodinal. But my experience with the Adox chemistry (limited to be sure ) has been positive.

I've got XTOL stashed in case of Martian invasion. I wouldn't recommend any Kodak Alaris black and white chemistry to anyone until there's no more warnings of brown developer, or crystals in the bottles of HC-110. It's sad.

 

[pentaxuser]

You only needed to drain the water and leave the film in the tank, no need to pull it out and dry it on a hanger. Soaking for extended periods could cause the emulsion to swell excessively leaving it fragile or even possibly flaking off the base. I don't know your reason for prerinse, but I do it to eliminate the possibility of air bells, and three minutes is plenty for that. Some think it's to remove the AH coating, but that is dissolved in the developer without issue. That horrible magenta color that shows up after processing needs more wash time (as well as more fix time) to flush it away.

Thanks for the post. Let me cover your points in sequence:
1. I used my print air dryer( essentially a box open at the front with a fan at the back that blows air over prints or in this case, over the film still in its tank as it was awaiting delayed development until the following day). This was an attempt to ensure that any water left on the film after emptying and shaking the tank was removed by the moving ambient air. The film was never pulled out and placed on a hangar to dry. My film dryer is a Durst UT100 with transparent sides and while I could have puled the film out of the tank and hung it up I'd have either been confined in the darkroom all night in total darkness with no food, water or even a place to lay my head or hope that on opening the door of the darkroom it would be dark enough for there to be no light at all outside to ruin the film. I did not fancy trying either option

However nice to know that shaking the tank would have removed all the water on the film's surface so there was no danger of any water( hard water in this area of the U.K. that is ) from drying and leaving a mark on the film.

Can I be sure that in a hard water area simply shaking the tank is enough with a time lapse of 15 hours?
I feel you are right about extended soaking, hence my action

I think I have covered my reason for the pre-rinse in previous posts i.e. simply to rid the film of the dye prior to using the chemicals but yes it would appear that the developer, water stop bath and fix between them, take care of eliminating the dye as you and others have said

On the issue of the magenta colour, there was no hint of this but maybe this is produced by the action of no pre-rinse and the dev, stop, and fix process thus the need for an extended wash time post the process to rid the film of this colour ?

I do not know what it was like in your schooldays but in the U.K.in the 1950's we had to use ink that was what was called then "blue/black" and its colour which was a dirty looking blue reminds me of the Kodak dye

I hope I have clarified all your points which deserve to be covered. Nothing worse that wondering why someone does something that seems strange

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[reddesert]

I think this may have already been stated, but: I've developed Tmax and had the purple color come out in the fix or the wash aid (Perma Wash). I then reuse the fix and wash aid per normal capacity and it's just fine. The purple color doesn't go back into the film.

I have Tmax negatives that I processed over 20 years ago like this, and they're still fine. Just do the normal series of processing steps and don't worry about it.

 

[Prest_400]

I've soaked Rollie IR film in distilled water to rid it of its AH layer, dried it, and then loaded it in holders and shot it. Looks fine to me. A few drops of photo-flo wouldn't hurt, either.

OT but this is interesting. I understand that is to approach the results of HIE and Efke IR Aura which were films without AH. Interesting. Unfortunately quite impractical for rollfilm.

Back to the topic, quite interesting discussion and contribution by Bob. I use HC110 one shot so not much to say myself. With proper fixing I haven't had an issue with remaining dyes. If anything I noticed that sometimes my Ilford film has a tiny bit of magenta in the base, which is gone the next time I inspect the negatives. I think the fixer was colder during mixing in those occasions.
Foma film I do presoak a minute, it is just fun to see the green dyed water come out of the tank.

 

[pentaxuser]

Foma film I do presoak a minute, it is just fun to see the green dyed water come out of the tank.

Yes there is I am sure a probably primaeval instinct in most of us, me included, that gets satisfaction out of positively ridding the film of its dye from the beginning of the process
However in this age of reason I will try and resist such actions

pentaxuser

 

[takilmaboxer]

I always get a kick out of the vivid color that appears when I pre-soak Foma 100 film. But Foma's are softer emulsions than the virtually indestructible Tmax films and I would never soak them for 18 hours and the purple dye comes right out of Tmaxif you fix long enough! Let us know how your situation turns out!

 

[MattKing]

I miss the Plus-X blue as the pre-rinse goes down the drain...

 

[pentaxuser]

Let us know how your situation turns out!

Thanks for the sentiment but I thought I already had said in #34 how the situation turned out. To reiterate the film(TMY 400) dried fine. I used my old standby Rodinal and the negs were fine. More grain of course than in Xtol but to what extent that will detract from a 5x7 or at most 8x10 print may be debatable. I will use my just slightly "faded" Xtol again with extra development time and see what happens

However as I have fresh Microphen to be made into stock and 120 rolls of D3200 to develop, I think that this will be my next port of call as the two may be made for each other. I hope it will certainly give me the speed and better grain than Rodinal but I'll let you know when I develop the rolls of D3200

pentaxuser