So what's up with this shutter?

[RLangham]

These are some shots from my Zenit E. When I got it I had to tension the rear curtain a little to get it to close fully, but of course it still needs calibration, and I've noticed these B/W shots show uneven exposure.

These are the only shots where the unevenness is visible. Now, obviously, this shows up much less on color negative film, and the bulk of what I put through the camera up to this point was Fujicolor, so that's one reason I haven't noticed it until now. I also think this is probably at 1/250th or 1/125th, since most of the roll was shot at 1/500th and shows no defects.

What's going on and which curtain should I adjust to try and reduce this? I do have a CRT TV somewhere that I can look through the shutter at, but I'd still like an expert's advice.

As an aside, we've had the negativity thread about the Zenits already, so I don't want to get bogged down in that... a lot of you had bad experiences with this model or related models, but this one seems well made and the overall track record of the model is not what's at issue here.

The camera was right side up for both of these pictures.

EDIT: it would help if I uploaded the files!

 

[Donald Qualls]

Assuming that's a left-to-right shutter (I think my Zenit is, but it doesn't cock), it looks like you have a "bump" in the curtain track, possibly affecting only the second curtain. It's causing a momentary slow-down (the lighter stripe) and then the gap is wrong for the rest of the exposure (the very slightly lighter region past the stripe). I'm surprised it doesn't show at higher speeds -- the sync speed is only 60 on that camera, right? Meaning, at 125 or 250 you'd have a slit, it'd just be narrower at 500.

 

[RLangham]

Assuming that's a left-to-right shutter (I think my Zenit is, but it doesn't cock), it looks like you have a "bump" in the curtain track, possibly affecting only the second curtain. It's causing a momentary slow-down (the lighter stripe) and then the gap is wrong for the rest of the exposure (the very slightly lighter region past the stripe). I'm surprised it doesn't show at higher speeds -- the sync speed is only 60 on that camera, right? Meaning, at 125 or 250 you'd have a slit, it'd just be narrower at 500.

Actually, X speed is only 1/25th, as on the early 50's Zorki S model that is the ancestor of most of these Zenit models.

Actually, now that I think of it, that picture of the sky would have been at 1/500th. Maybe I shot a lot at slower speeds on that roll, and those were some of the only shots where I went to 1/500? I don't know what's going on.

Anyways, on my Zorki S, a chip of film was between the blind and the inside of the shutter gate. It ran much better once I removed it. Could that be what's happening?

 

[Donald Qualls]

That makes more sense (those being at 500) -- a little bump in the movement will have much more effect on a faster speed than a slower one, because the slow-down is a bigger fraction of the exposure. This could well be due to a foreign object like a film chip in the shutter track; it could also be a burr in the timing train or something similar, or an actual dent in the shutter gate. I'm not familiar with the workings of either Zorki or Zenit shutters, and I know Kiev/Contax shutters only by watching my Kiev 4 bodies run. I did have an Exa (vertical curtain, but 25 sync and 500 top) apart down to the mirror box and shutter once, but I didn't fix it -- it still failed to cap when I got it back together (and that was about 1973-1974).

 

[RLangham]

That makes more sense (those being at 500) -- a little bump in the movement will have much more effect on a faster speed than a slower one, because the slow-down is a bigger fraction of the exposure. This could well be due to a foreign object like a film chip in the shutter track; it could also be a burr in the timing train or something similar, or an actual dent in the shutter gate. I'm not familiar with the workings of either Zorki or Zenit shutters, and I know Kiev/Contax shutters only by watching my Kiev 4 bodies run. I did have an Exa (vertical curtain, but 25 sync and 500 top) apart down to the mirror box and shutter once, but I didn't fix it -- it still failed to cap when I got it back together (and that was about 1973-1974).

Well, I do feel a slight catch in the shutter when I allow it to unwind with my fingers on the dial, but towards the beginning of the frame rather than the end, and this does seem to be some kind of feature of the mechanism, as my Zorki S also has it-- but then again, I don't know how the Zorki S performs since the first roll I've shot in it is in the tank stand developing in Caf-C as I type. It's my newest camera and, if I can get it in robustly functional shape, probably going to be one of my favorites. It's similar to a Leica II in almost all regards, but with a slightly modified shutter that doesn't break if you change speeds while it's uncocked, and a variable flash sync similar to the one on the Leica IIIf. It's not quite as pretty as a straight Leica knockoff like the Zorki I, but it's very elegant and with the collapsible Industar-22, very pocketable. I also like that with certain Industar 26m lenses you can see the current aperture through the viewfinder!


These are very simple shutters, basically the progenitors of most other 35mm focal plane shutters, since they're based on the Leica II--no timer, just variable slit width set by putting a pin in a hole. It's nothing so elegant as the Contax/Kiev design, and indeed, I might buy a Kiev eventually, but these designs... well, they're simple enough for me to work on, once I know what the problem is, and that says something. I'm going to eventually disassemble this Zenit and see what's wrong. The only thing that gives me pause is that there are so many add-ons to the top deck that make disassembly complicated: lever wind, various parts of the meter, the reflex finder...

 

[Donald Qualls]

Yep, focal plane shutters are complicated enough, then you add a mirror box (is it instant return, or does the mirror stay up like it did in my Exa II?), and a meter, and suddenly it's daunting to even consider opening it up.

 

[RLangham]

Yep, focal plane shutters are complicated enough, then you add a mirror box (is it instant return, or does the mirror stay up like it did in my Exa II?), and a meter, and suddenly it's daunting to even consider opening it up.

Well, it could be worse. It could be a leaf shutter... I can flood one of those, but I can't even safely open one, unless it's an Argus C3.

Overall, a focal plane shutter without slow speeds is about the simplest kind of shutter.

The Zenit E is the second Zenit to have an instant return mirror... I have no idea how that works. The Zenit S is at least a simple enough mechanism where the mirror is spring loaded and pulled down with a thread into a vertical latch, which jumps to the side as the shutter is fired. It depends on a very strong spring to be out of the way in time for the shutter. On the other hand the Zenit E has a thoroughly modern sound and feel to the mirror. I have no idea how it works.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I've never tried opening up a focal plane without slow speeds -- never owned one that didn't go down to at least 1/2 second.

The instant mirror probably uses a cam of some sort -- instead of just a spring to raise the mirror, the cam raises it, holds it until the second curtain closes, and then lowers it again, still powered by the same spring. This requires more stored energy than a simple one-way mirror, but it's a lot nicer to use with an eye-level finder -- you can see your subject immediately after the exposure, so you have a better clue if something changed in that instant.

 

[RLangham]

I've never tried opening up a focal plane without slow speeds -- never owned one that didn't go down to at least 1/2 second.

The instant mirror probably uses a cam of some sort -- instead of just a spring to raise the mirror, the cam raises it, holds it until the second curtain closes, and then lowers it again, still powered by the same spring. This requires more stored energy than a simple one-way mirror, but it's a lot nicer to use with an eye-level finder -- you can see your subject immediately after the exposure, so you have a better clue if something changed in that instant.

I always liked non returning mirrors because if you can see it you can take a picture of it. You never line up a shot and then lose it because of your shutter being uncocked. That's just me though.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I always liked non returning mirrors because if you can see it you can take a picture of it. You never line up a shot and then lose it because of your shutter being uncocked. That's just me though.

That's not a problem I've had -- I learned to advance immediately after exposing fifty-plus years ago on a Duaflex IV and a Brownie Hawkeye Flash. Yeah, it leaves the shutter cocked (sometimes for years, if the camera doesn't get fired before it's put away), but if the springs are sized right and not overstressed, it does them no harm. And yes, I've heard all the arguments -- I probably only own two or three shutters where changing speed after cocking causes trouble, and those are on folders and get cocked immediately before exposure. I do own a couple that can't be changed unless cocked (Kiev 4), but those cock when I advance.

 

[RLangham]

That's not a problem I've had -- I learned to advance immediately after exposing fifty-plus years ago on a Duaflex IV and a Brownie Hawkeye Flash. Yeah, it leaves the shutter cocked (sometimes for years, if the camera doesn't get fired before it's put away), but if the springs are sized right and not overstressed, it does them no harm. And yes, I've heard all the arguments -- I probably only own two or three shutters where changing speed after cocking causes trouble, and those are on folders and get cocked immediately before exposure. I do own a couple that can't be changed unless cocked (Kiev 4), but those cock when I advance.

I honestly have no trouble remembering to cock either, so I guess all I'm saying is non-returning mirror doesn't bother me.

What I really want, though, is a modern full-featured SLR with manually-controlled mirror as on the Italian Rectaflexes--it raises when you half-depress the shutter release, and returns as soon as you release it. This has the advantage of greatly simplifying the shutter mechanism until it is roughly identical to an equivalent rangefinder shutter--so I can repair it myself--and reduces mirror shake, since you can raise the mirror slowly before firing the shutter. It's better than a separate mirror lockup mechanism, in my mind. God, I wish I'd had lenses for my Rectaflex.

It's interesting about the shutters that you have to cock before changing speeds... I've never had one, but every Russian camera I own has the reputation that this is the case. I've been warned repeatedly, but actual manuals inform me that it's safe to change speeds uncocked on the cameras I own. It's true about the earliest Russian focal plane shutter cameras, since they're based on the Leica II, and it's true about any Russian focal plane shutter camera with slow speeds, as in the case of your Kiev, but on cameras like most Fed 2's, most basic Zorkis, and all Zenits after the first model, this problem was fixed. If the shutter speed indicator is on the central axle, it's safe to change speeds uncocked. I don't know what changed about the shutter that makes this the case, and to be honest I don't do it in case I'm wrong, but I have it on good authority that this is the case.

 

[Donald Qualls]

It's interesting about the shutters that you have to cock before changing speeds... I've never had one, but every Russian camera I own has the reputation that this is the case. I've been warned repeatedly, but actual manuals inform me that it's safe to change speeds uncocked on the cameras I own. It's true about the earliest Russian focal plane shutter cameras, since they're based on the Leica II, and it's true about any Russian focal plane shutter camera with slow speeds, as in the case of your Kiev, but on cameras like most Fed 2's, most basic Zorkis, and all Zenits after the first model, this problem was fixed. If the shutter speed indicator is on the central axle, it's safe to change speeds uncocked. I don't know what changed about the shutter that makes this the case, and to be honest I don't do it in case I'm wrong, but I have it on good authority that this is the case.

From what I've read, it doesn't actually do any harm to change the speed on my Kiev 4 bodies before advancing/cocking -- it just doesn't actually change the speed. I know I've forgotten and moved the knob a couple times, and then put it back, and the shutter still works fine (at least as of the last time I processed -- see another thread on how long it can take to shoot 36 on a daily carry camera). Since I generally advance/cock immediately after exposing, it isn't usually a problem anyway, so I don't worry about it.

 

[RLangham]

From what I've read, it doesn't actually do any harm to change the speed on my Kiev 4 bodies before advancing/cocking -- it just doesn't actually change the speed. I know I've forgotten and moved the knob a couple times, and then put it back, and the shutter still works fine (at least as of the last time I processed -- see another thread on how long it can take to shoot 36 on a daily carry camera). Since I generally advance/cock immediately after exposing, it isn't usually a problem anyway, so I don't worry about it.

It's one of those problems that is blown way out of proportion in terms of prevalence. If the majority of Russian focal plane shutter cameras had it, even fewer would come down to us in working shape.