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So just how hard can it be to make film?

Basically, film support and resin support used in RC papers repel water and therefore they repel gelatin in water. A special material that adheres to film support or the resin and is porous enough to allow gelatin to adhere to it is ideal as a subbing.

If a plain polymer is used, it might work, but then as soon as you dipped the film into water for processing, the polymer would dissolve and allow your emulsion layer to float off in a thin sheet. Therefore, not any polymer will do. It must be hardenable or must somehow set up permanently while still allowing the emulsion layer to adhere.

At the same time, it cannot be too acidic or basic or oxidative or reductive, otherwise you mess with the emulsion.

See how easy it is?

PE
 
Can someone give me more information on Baryta support from Bergger? A contact or something? Someone who has actually purchased some?

Thanks.

PE
 
I found an interesting item in an Ebay ad, Kodak roller transport cleanup film 4955. It's basically film base with a layer of gelatin coated on both sides. Someone needs to try this with Liquid emulsion and see what happens. It would make it possible to shoot hand coated film in standard film holders.
 
I think this would make a great support for Carbon tissue....where is the auction?
 
The manufacturers usually apply corona discharge treatment to the surface of polyester film and sub the surface with styrene butadiene latex copolymer or something similar. But they probably have more efficient methods by now. (Years ago they used one or more extra steps of subbing before gelatin layer) Once the polyester is thus subbed, the surface is ready to accept aqueous gelatin coating. Cellulose triacetate film is a lot easier in this regard. (That's why a lot of films made by low-tech manufacturers use triacetate base.)

In terms of the polymer technology that went into the film base, APS films are the top. They specifically designed a kind of polyester (annealed poly(ethylene naphthalate)) which is just as durable as PET but doesn't curl. I think only APS-participating manufacturers have this technology. (The process to make this type of film base is a lot more involved than plain PET film base.)


 
I have Tani's book, from which I learned A LOT, but I have to warn you. Tani's main interest is the mechanism by which light exposure is registered in silver halide crystals. His book gives a very concise general account of how emulsion is made, but the setup is very schematized and the book isn't aimed to describe how to make emulsions. This is a very scientific book. If you are an emulsion maker with good background in material science an d electrochemistry, you'll learn a lot from this book, but otherwise this is simply a wrong book to consult.


avandesande said:
 
The first one is a good dye to use, but unless you use a supersensitizer together, the speed won't be very good.


 
Those old German formulae are obsolete and not useful today, because gelatin they used is very different from gelatin available today. One large factor in high quality emulsions Germans could made in 1930s is because they had a wide range of gelatins available, and they blended depending on the application at hand. Today, quality of gelatin is managed in very different ways. Impurities present in 1930s gelatins are largely removed. It was the impurities that played important role in old emulsion making practice. Today, emulsion chemists introduce those "impurities" deliberately in the reacting vessel instead of relying on empirical gelatin blending.

I have much of relevant BIOS and FIAT reports but they are only good for historical studies...

Speaking of historical literature, there are very comprehensive books on industrial chemistry of photography in 1920s, written by a famous AGFA chemist who later came to work for ANSCO. Unfortunately all of his books are written in German language. (I have a copy of the most interesting one.)

 
A 100 speed emulsion in those 1920's books are not ISO speed. They are most likely H&D speed. 100 H&D speed is comparable to or slower than today's multigrade paper emulsion used as a negative emulsion. (There is no exact conversion factor to speak of, because they are measured with different conditions.)


 
Books published in the U.S. is in public domain if it was published before 1923.

The emulsion books written by E. J. Wall contain a lot of errors, irrelevant suggestions, misconceptions, etc. and I do not recommend them. I have a copy of 2nd edition but it's pretty bad. It's useful only as a way to search for older literatures for historical study. Same applies to Baker's book.

If you like to study the emulsion making in 1920s, I suggest to read Carroll's paper in J. Chem. Edu. Carroll was very knowledgeable at that time but that was before he worked for Eastman Kodak Company, so he could disclose much of his knowledge in published paper. Carroll's formula in that paper work reasonably well with some of photographic gelatins available today, but good results probably require some tweaking.



 
Don't worry, much of emulsion making is described in literature. Certainly enough is written as long as b&w emulsions are concerned. Most recent advancement is written for color photography, but some of those new techniques can be applied to b&w emulsions as well.

Kodak people may have strong internal barriers in terms of sharing information within them, but Fuji worked on research and development with huge teams, and people changed their role every 5-15 years. So many people know more than one aspect of emulsion chemistry. And Fuji (and ex-Fuji) people still publish their knowledge in scientific journals even in 2005. They are still doing basic science of silver imaging.

Also, it takes a certain kind of skill to read useful info out of patents. Patents are usually applied as a "network" around each new breakthrough, and different people have different styles. But once you get the art of patent deciphering, you'll get a lot of info from them, especially if you cross-check patents and scientific papers.

Plus, I'm not that old.


 
There are lots of dyes that can be used for pan films. I can make t-grain emulsion, and theoretically, sensitize for panchromatic films. However, I am working in safelight using my own arms, so I can't handle pan emulsions. If you pay to build a facility for me, I can make it for you

The best I've tried so far is infrared emulsion (in green safelight). But this is still painful to make practically usable plates in very dim light (or the emulsion will fog).