So I want to make a 4x5 camera

PeteZ8 · Mar 28, 2008

Hello all, I'm fairly new to APUG and completely new to large format. I've been looking around at 4x5 cameras and I have decided I'd rather make one on my own.

I have a pretty good idea of what it needs to have in terms of movements and such and how to make them, as well as a long history of spinning handles in a machine shop. Bellows are fairly affordable and very available. Materials I probably have most of laying around my shop. I'm fairly confident I can even make my own ground glass on my surface plate with some lapping compound.

What I am lost on are the details. What are the standard sizes for lens boards? Diameter of lens mounts? What size is a standard 4x5 film holder? etc etc. I guess what I am looking for are some type of plans that I could get the pertinant details off of.

Thanks!

Pete

PeteZ8 · Mar 28, 2008

I should also note; I'm looking to build a field camera, although the details I am looking for should be fairly universal.

Thanks again!

Pete

Erik L · Mar 28, 2008

Hi Pete, check out this site http://www.raymentkirbycameras.co.uk/workshop/index.htm
It might give you some ideas. I would stick to technika type lens boards as they are plentiful.
You also might look through the camera building forum on this site.
Have fun with it
Erik

PeteZ8 · Mar 28, 2008

Erik, thanks for the link.

DUH! I didn't even see that forum. If a mod wants to move this, that is fine with me!

Thanks again!

DannL · Mar 28, 2008

Few things are more fun than building your own view camera. My first three view cameras were 8x10 in size. I highly recommend that there be two parts you purchase ready made. One being a film holder of the desired size, and the other being a lens which covers the film. Had I not purchased some film holders in advance I would have surely quit frustrated. My first homemade ground glass was acid etched with slightly diluted "Armour Etch". Dangerous stuff indeed, but with a little practice it works like as champ. Having an idea of the many variations in view cameras also helped me. (Some links below).

http://www.photographica.nu/cameracollection.htm
http://vintage-cameras.com/html/ma_collection1.html
http://www.antiquewoodcameras.com/views.htm

We're pullin' for ya, so keep us updated.
Dann

Nick Zentena · Mar 29, 2008

PeteZ8 said:
I have a pretty good idea of what it needs to have in terms of movements and such and how to make them, as well as a long history of spinning handles in a machine shop. Bellows are fairly affordable and very available. Materials I probably have most of laying around my shop. I'm fairly confident I can even make my own ground glass on my surface plate with some lapping compound.

What I am lost on are the details. What are the standard sizes for lens boards? Diameter of lens mounts? What size is a standard 4x5 film holder? etc etc. I guess what I am looking for are some type of plans that I could get the pertinant details off of.

Thanks!

Pete

I remember the same basic question from somebody a few weeks back. Check out that thread.

Some of your questions to me point to you needing LOTS of information. The sort of information that comes from using a camera for awhile.

A new bellows can and often does cost more then a complete used camera with good bellows. So affordable bellows isn't a term often heard.

The main thing is almost nobody sticks with their first camera. Most of us don't stick with our second either. Some things you'll only know after you've lived with the thing for awhile. Cursing the camera designer is a good way to learn what you really want and not what you thought you wanted.

PeteZ8 · Mar 29, 2008

DannL, thank you for the reply. I will give those links a good looking over! I had thought about acid etching the glass, what is the "Armour Etch"? I would guess it is basicly hydroflouric acid, similar to what is used for doing security etching on car windows? Did you apply it directly to the glass or use a screen? When I was working on injection molds we would put texture on mold cavaties with acid and very advanced textured materials; toilet paper

PeteZ8 · Mar 29, 2008

Nick thank you for the honest reply. I do have a lot to learn, but isn't that the point? You learn a lot more about cars by building one than you ever can driving it. I realize this is not a "simple" task, but I have done a bit of reading and have a pretty good idea what I want. Basicly I want everything. All of the movements. Up, down, left, right, tilt, pan, spin, backflip, wax on, wax off...

I have done a bit of looking around and find very few cameras offering this, and certainly none anywhere near my budget. Since I will most likely have only one camera for everything, at least for some time, I want something that does not offer many limits. I am not a long distance hiker, so I don't need the lightest thing in the world. I may want to use it for portrait or macro shooting, so the maximum amount of perspective control is desirable. I want something durable, so 50 year old wooden cameras are out.

Basicly the closest thing I can find to what I am looking for are some of the Sinar cameras. At those prices, I will be wanting one for a long, long time. I also like the idea of knowing anything I use inside and out, and I feel it is a great way to learn. It encourages me to do research, and I will be intimately familiar with every function on the camera the first time I step into the field. Perhaps most importantly, it will work the way I want it to, not the way someone else thinks it should.

Thanks again and I appreciate your insight. I understand that there will be challenges along the way, but isn't that half the fun?

Nick Zentena · Mar 29, 2008

PeteZ8 said:
I may want to use it for portrait or macro shooting, so the maximum amount of perspective control is desirable. I want something durable, so 50 year old wooden cameras are out.

Sort of reinforces what I mean. Portrait cameras have very little in the way of movements. Just not needed.

Wooden cameras even 50 year old ones tend to be very durable. Plus anybody that can tell which end of a screwdriver to hold can work on one

Plus plenty of big 8x10 monorails from people like Cambo going for less then the value of new bellows. Find one with a 4x5 reducing back.

Or buy an older 4x5/5x7 camera and try movements for awhile. You'll likely find pretzels like movements aren't used much.

DannL · Mar 29, 2008

PeteZ8 said:
DannL, thank you for the reply. I will give those links a good looking over! I had thought about acid etching the glass, what is the "Armour Etch"? I would guess it is basicly hydroflouric acid, similar to what is used for doing security etching on car windows? Did you apply it directly to the glass or use a screen? When I was working on injection molds we would put texture on mold cavaties with acid and very advanced textured materials; toilet paper

Armour Etch is sold in craft stores to etch designs on glass objects. Cost me about $11 for as bottle two years ago. Wear goggles, old clothes, rubber gloves and keep fresh water at the ready. I mixed mine on the glass with water using a paintbrush. Keep it constantly moving or else it will etch too much in some spots vs others, leaving an uneven etch. I'm sure smaller glass would work better, but at 8x10 it was challenging. Took about ten minutes of work. Making bellows is fun also. Another thing that takes practice, but once figured out it never leaves you. I'm preparing to build a 4x5 bellow as we speak. The secret to success is building a cardboard form on which to construct the bellows.

Steve Smith · Mar 29, 2008

I have started building my second view camera. There is a link to my blog below. Not a lot on it yet though....

Steve.

Neal · Mar 29, 2008

Dear Pete,

Several years ago there was an article in View Camera magazine in which a fellow made quite an impressive camera. You should be able to purchase the article on CD off their web site. You may need to send them a note to choose the correct CD.

Neal Wydra

DannL · Mar 29, 2008

More info found . . .

Holder dimensions . . .
http://home.earthlink.net/~eahoo/page8/filmhold.html

I much prefer to measure in mm/cm, but the measurements listed above appear to be fairly close. +/- 1 mm in most cases for the 4x5.

And detailed info on his camera . . . (click on the camera picts to get to the details)
http://home.earthlink.net/~eahoo/camera.html

Edit: I also wanted to add this site to the list of view camera sites (my favorite site) . . . http://www.fiberq.com/cam/cent.htm

Enjoy!

bobwysiwyg · Mar 29, 2008

Pardon the newbie intrusion, but aren't there some kit form view cameras out there? I occasion think about getting into view myself occasionally. Has anyone any experience with them? Are they worth considering? Seems like they might be a middle of the road approach between $$ finished/commercial, and building one from scratch.

Erik L · Mar 29, 2008

bobwysiwyg said:
Pardon the newbie intrusion, but aren't there some kit form view cameras out there? I occasion think about getting into view myself occasionally. Has anyone any experience with them? Are they worth considering? Seems like they might be a middle of the road approach between $$ finished/commercial, and building one from scratch.

I think you are better off buying used than building from a kit, unless the building process is what you enjoy. There are many good deals on used equipment these days. That said, I do enjoy building things
regards
Erik

PeteZ8 · Mar 29, 2008

Thank you all for the informative and experienced replies.

ErikL, yes, being of a very mechanical nature the building process is somthing that I do very much enjoy, perhaps as much or more as I will using it. And as I said before, nothing will match the learning experience of doing it on your own.

walter23 · Mar 29, 2008

PeteZ8 said:
Hello all, I'm fairly new to APUG and completely new to large format. I've been looking around at 4x5 cameras and I have decided I'd rather make one on my own.

I have a pretty good idea of what it needs to have in terms of movements and such and how to make them, as well as a long history of spinning handles in a machine shop. Bellows are fairly affordable and very available. Materials I probably have most of laying around my shop. I'm fairly confident I can even make my own ground glass on my surface plate with some lapping compound.

What I am lost on are the details. What are the standard sizes for lens boards? Diameter of lens mounts? What size is a standard 4x5 film holder? etc etc. I guess what I am looking for are some type of plans that I could get the pertinant details off of.

Thanks!

Pete

Buy a film holder for about $10 somewhere (you can find one on largeformatphotography.info/forum in the buy & sell, I'm sure, or here in the classifieds). Work around it.

I'd suggest building around a linhof style lens board. From badger graphic (badgergraphic.com) or mpex.com you can probably pick up a Shen Hao or generic brand one for about $20 or $30.

Having these two physical items in your hand is all you will really need. The dimensions can be found with a bit of internet searching, but nothing beats having the real thing to fit your work to.

PeteZ8 · Mar 29, 2008

DannL said:
More info found . . .

Edit: I also wanted to add this site to the list of view camera sites (my favorite site) . . . http://www.fiberq.com/cam/cent.htm

Enjoy!

The first link is expeically helpful, thank you! Also thank you for the link I quoted above. I was "given" a very rough condition Century #2 and the images are helpful to determine what peices I am missing etc. By "rough" I mean no ground glass, no lens, no lens board, and some broken wood on the rail. Eventually I plan to restore that camera but 5x7 is not my ideal format as 4x5 enlargers are much more readily available and compact.

I did play with it a bit last night, by putting some common wax paper behind a clear glass panel and gaffer taping a magnifying glass over the lens hole, I was actually able to project a near full frame, focused image on the glass.

walter23 · Mar 29, 2008

BTW I'm working on a really simple view camera right now. It's just two box frames connected by a bag bellows and eventually a rail. Your construction need not be as elaborate as something like a Zone VI, Tachihara or Shen Hao. Anything that connects your film holder with your lens in a light tight fashion and allows movements will work. Here's mine with the prototype bellows installed (the real one will be flexible cloth instead of photopaper black-bag material). The rail will be very simple and allow movements on just one axis, plus focus:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b377/walter2323/IMG_5573.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b377/walter2323/IMG_5575.jpg

This is just a cheap 'n dirty camera to throw in the canoe on trips, take on higher altitude hikes, etc. The film holder is a 12-shot graflex bag magazine. Kind of dusty but much smaller than the equivalent number of real holders.

JBrunner · Mar 29, 2008

The absolute best thing you can do, if you are interested in building a field camera is to get a hold of a couple of examples and examine how the designers approached things. If you shop carefully, you will be able to sell them for for what you paid.

I'm not suggesting you copy them, but that you examine a couple of designs hands on before you embark upon your own. You will discover you prefer one over the other. With view cameras, pictures and drawings don't really tell the whole tale, when it comes down to using them.

BTE 1948 · Mar 29, 2008

PeteZ8 said:
Hello all, I'm fairly new to APUG and completely new to large format. I've been looking around at 4x5 cameras and I have decided I'd rather make one on my own.

I have a pretty good idea of what it needs to have in terms of movements and such and how to make them, as well as a long history of spinning handles in a machine shop. Bellows are fairly affordable and very available. Materials I probably have most of laying around my shop. I'm fairly confident I can even make my own ground glass on my surface plate with some lapping compound.

What I am lost on are the details. What are the standard sizes for lens boards? Diameter of lens mounts? What size is a standard 4x5 film holder? etc etc. I guess what I am looking for are some type of plans that I could get the pertinant details off of.

Thanks!

Pete

Link Building a Large Format Camera.
Dead Link Removed

BTE

vdoak · Mar 29, 2008

Hello Pete

I built one a while back based on a monorail design. I based it on plans I got form Jon Grepstad, Oslo Norway. ( Dead Link Removed ) On his web site you can see several camera builders cameras of both field and monorail design. A good example for hand made field cameras can be found at Doug Bardel's web site ( http://www.cyberbeach.net/~dbardell/camera.html )
As for dimensions I echo a previous post, get a hold of a film holder. Base the dimensions around it. There is really only one critical measurement, the distance form the forward surface of the film holder to the film plane has to be the same as the distance from the forward surface of the ground glass holder to the forward surface of the ground glass. The standard is 4.8mm (ANSI standard is 0.1972" plus or minus 0.0007") After that it is just to make everything fit and keep it light tight.
You can see the one I built at: http://www.doak.no/index_files/page0001.htm
some of the pictures I have take with it are at:
http://www.doak.no/gallery/jalbum/

Post some pictures when you get yours put together.

Good luck!

kirkfry · Mar 29, 2008

Pete,

The tricky part is getting the film in exactly the same place as the frosty part of the ground glass when you stick in your film holder. One approach might be to buy a beat up 4X5 camera and incorporate the back into your design.
Almost all 4X5 view cameras made in the last 100 years or so used standard dimensions for the film holders and backs. Just a thought, good luck. I agree that it would be real helpful to have a real live back and film holder in hand to measure. K

DannL · Mar 30, 2008

kirkfry said:
Pete,

The tricky part is getting the film in exactly the same place as the frosty part of the ground glass when you stick in your film holder. One approach might be to buy a beat up 4X5 camera and incorporate the back into your design.
Almost all 4X5 view cameras made in the last 100 years or so used standard dimensions for the film holders and backs. Just a thought, good luck. I agree that it would be real helpful to have a real live back and film holder in hand to measure. K

That is a very important aspect. One way to get around this problem is to do what I did. Though not perfect, it does the job. If you have an old wooden holder, knock the end out, remove the septum, and replace the septum with the ground glass. When used as your ground glass, it's position is "basically" at the same plane as the film in a holder (minus the thickness of film base). Images attached; Here is an 8x10 version used for projects and the 4x5 I use in a converted Ernemann HEAG XI (10x15).

ic-racer · Mar 30, 2008

PeteZ8 said:
I was "given" a very rough condition Century #2 and the images are helpful to determine what peices I am missing etc. By "rough" I mean no ground glass, no lens, no lens board, and some broken wood on the rail. Eventually I plan to restore that camera but 5x7 is not my ideal format as 4x5 enlargers are much more readily available and compact.

You can build, buy or restore a reducing back so that the Century takes 4x5 film.

(Century restoration: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=29267)

So I want to make a 4x5 camera

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