So I want a rangefinder

HiNDri · Nov 29, 2009

So you hear this regularly, but I've been studying for a while and want to return to my roots. My first camera (quite some time ago) was a Leica IIIc. Not sure of its exact lineage but supposedly my uncle "brought it back from the war." There were 3 lenses: a 50 mm, something wider, and something longer maybe a 90 mm. Using mostly B&W, I took pictures of things and views: odd angles, weird light and shadow, rocks, animals, anything that got my attention, rarely people, never vacations. A year or two out of high school I got drafted and upon my return from another war the camera and all those negatives were gone along with most of the world I had left.

I moved on to SLRs probably a Konica was the first one a variety of things along the way, stopped photography for quite a stretch, returned and finally went digital. I now shoot semi-professionally with pro-body Canons and frankly am amazed at what I can do with them. I'm no Luddite so I really appreciate what technology has wrought.

Still I've increasingly found as I hold this color computer to my eye that I've lost some sort of immediacy and contact that I had with the simplicity of RF and B&W. As I look at what people want for old Leicas, I wish I still had that IIIc. Wow! Who said film was dead?

I don't think I have the cash to get into a Leica so I'm looking for alternatives. I probably have $300-$500 USD to spend. It would be nice if the camera had a functioning light meter. I'm looking at things like the Canon 7, the Canonette QL-17, or what would you suggest. Leica CL seem to be in this price range though their light meters rarely work. M3s seem to start at about $800. I'd love an M5 even though it is supposedly "big" but they seem to be in the $1200-1800 range. Are the new Cosinas any good? The price is certainly attractive.

Since this is the "Range Finder Forum" and you guys are the experts, I thought I'd ask here. Also, my only buying source is eBlow. Are there other places to buy rangefinders?

TIA

Robert

keithwms · Nov 29, 2009

I'd take a long, hard look at the Zeiss Ikon, and after that, the bessas. After that, I'd consider used.

fiddle · Nov 29, 2009

Zeiss Ikons, about 1400 new, or the Bessa, a friend has one and likes it very much, I think they go for about 600+ new.. They are all M mount, so can buy really nice leica glass at some point, or by voigtlander glass, which I think are great for the price..

alexmacphee · Nov 29, 2009

Where I am, the Zeiss Ikons are going for well over double your budget max, body only. Faced with a similar proposition to your own, I opted for the Bessa R3A, and it's so much better than I'd expected. It does everything I want a camera to do, the light meter is accurate, and the door is open to a superb series of lenses from your marque of choice. After forty years of SLR-ing, I'm still getting used to the quiet shutter, the absence of mirror slap and the continuity of image in the viewfinder. And I'm not looking back!

flatulent1 · Nov 29, 2009

A Canonet QL17 is certainly a good place to start, given your budget. You can always move forward from there.

elekm · Nov 29, 2009

The new Carl Zeiss Zeiss Ikon is well outside your budget. You might be able to buy a new Cosina Voigtlander Bessa body, but you'll have no money left over for a lens, which probably won't be too much fun.

I think that you should be able to get a Leica IIIf with a Summitar (nice combination).

Make sure that the camera that you buy has been serviced. Otherwise, you'll need to set aside money for that (average $150).

Among fixed-lens cameras, there's the Konica III, an excellent camera.

There's also the Kodak Retina IIc/C, IIIc/C and IIa.

You might be able to get into a Zeiss Ikon Contax IIa.

There are probably a couple hundred models that fit within your budget. Do you want a fixed-lens camera or one with interchangeable lenses?

The Cosina Voigtlander lenses are incredible value, and many can be bought used.

Also, the Rangefinder Forum is a good place for discussions of rangefinder cameras, although it can be Leica-centric at times and also focus on minutae (which version of the Summicron is best?).

mr rusty · Nov 29, 2009

There's also the Kodak Retina IIc/C, IIIc/C and IIa.

and don't forget the iiis with interchangeable lenses.

Matthew Rusbarsky · Nov 29, 2009

HiNDri said:
I don't think I have the cash to get into a Leica so I'm looking for alternatives.

Several months ago I was considering trading all of my classic SLR gear for a user/beater Leica III as my introduction to rangefinders. Along the way I came across a Fed2 with the Industar 26m for $42 shipped. I figured I would try it out too see if the RF style of shooting appealed to me before I committed. After 2 rolls I fell in love with the Fed. It's no Leica, but damn, what fun I've been having. I printed a neg at 11x14 last night that snapped my head back.

John R. · Nov 29, 2009

Try a Contax G series. beautifully made cameras. Excellent Zeiss optics at reasonable price point. I use a G with 3 lenses and it is a pleasure to use. Auto or manual focus, auto bracketing and other great features.

Leighgion · Nov 29, 2009

I'll throw in a vote for the Canonet QL17. It's cheap, small, tough, and has a leaf shutter so silent it makes a Leica sound like an elephant. You can always trade up from it, but you may find that it's not so easy to bench. I dropped mine on my foot and my foot really hurt. While it's too small to fend off bear, it'll be invaluable against vorpal bunnies.

ntenny · Nov 29, 2009

The Soviet rangefinders are so darn inexpensive that it seems senseless *not* to have one or two. As everyone points out, they don't have the ergonomics or the build quality of their Leica role models, but they really are perfectly good all-manual cameras that have the virtue of using the Leica mount, and they have a certain charm of their own that really seems to speak to some people.

The new Bessas (Bessae?) are good. There's a lot of plastic---what do you expect at the price point?---but the build quality is respectable by any reasonable standard, and a lot of people, myself included, find them to be ergonomically comfortable even if they don't have the mysterious "haptics" of a Leica. To me they fit well with the rangefinder gestalt: a simple, straightforward camera that does what you need it to do and stays out of your way. A used Bessa-R, the early thread-mount version of the series, can be pretty cheap; I just picked one up for about US$160 in Japan. (Which means it's time to sell my Bessa-L, but I'm guessing you don't want a rangefinder with no rangefinder...)

-NT

WetMogwai · Nov 29, 2009

I had the same price range. I just paid $265 shipped for a nearly new Bessa R with a 50mm lens.

As far as the meter on the CL goes, is it just a problem of the battery being illegal in the US? I saw an ad a while ago for a new battery that is compatible with it. I think the ad was in View Camera Magazine, but I don't remember any details.

Alex Bishop-Thorpe · Nov 30, 2009

Just to make a note, the Voigtlander Bessas haven't been plastic since the Bessa R, the R2 and all later models use a magnesium alloy for all of the body. The original Bessa R had plastic body pannels, and the previous Bessa L, I imagine. The only noticeabe plastic on my Bessa R2A is the kinda fake leather-ette stuff around it as a body covering, which irked me at first, but you can get a leather covering kit from cameraleather.com if it bothers you. It's very easy to grip, which is it's job, but it seems out of place at first.

I dig the voigtlanders, and they're the best value for money around, considering the feature list. The only better option to me is a second hand one.

John Koehrer · Nov 30, 2009

If you're patient <$500 can get you a lllc w/lens. Don't rush into it.
The Canon 7's are very good & use the same lenses.

HiNDri · Nov 30, 2009

Great responses!

Thanks all for the feedback. I've been studying up on all the suggestions and "shopping" for some of them. I bid on a M5 but when it went over $625 passed. Sold for $650+ I found the camerquest pages. Real gold mine there! I'm currently looking at Canon 7, Olympus 35 RC, Konica S3, and several other small RFs. I note that the Contax G1 and G2 are roughly in my price range without lenses. These seem to be high quality cameras though bigger than some.

I guess I should go look at the Bessa. I too thought they were plastic. They are at the edge of affordable but I suspect that time and improvement have made them better than many of the "classic" models. Haven't looked at the Soviet models yet.

As I understand the problem with the Leica CL, the photocell itself wears out as well as a problem with silvering in the prism area. I've read reports of the cost of this repair ranging from $250 to $400 USD.

Finally can anyone suggest places to buy used other than ebay? I deal with the monopoly because there are so few other sources but would love to look elsewhere. I do watch the local craigslist.

Thanks all,

Robert

Venchka · Nov 30, 2009

The Nicca/Tower and Canon IV cameras are all similar to the Leica III series. Sometimes you can find a Tower (made by Nicca/sold by Sears) with one of the very good Nikkor 50mm lenses for the price of the lens alone. The Seronar/Canon 50/1.8 is a very good, very affordable lens. Assuming decent condition naturally.

Barry06GT · Nov 30, 2009

HiNDri said:
Finally can anyone suggest places to buy used other than ebay? I deal with the monopoly because there are so few other sources but would love to look elsewhere. I do watch the local craigslist.

Thanks all,

Robert

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KEH.com should top your list.

Cameta Camera has GREAT prices but LN there is like BGN at KEH.

Look at Photoethnography.com, Karen has lots of advice on purchasing used Classic cameras. See link below.

http://www.photoethnography.com
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Venchka · Nov 30, 2009

Barry06GT said:
.
.
KEH.com should top your list.

Cameta Camera has GREAT prices but LN there is like BGN at KEH.

Look at Photoethnography.com, Karen has lots of advice on purchasing used Classic cameras. See link below.

http://www.photoethnography.com
.
.

KEH BGN probably equals or betters many ebay "minty fresh" hallucinations.

Matthew Rusbarsky · Nov 30, 2009

HiNDri said:
Finally can anyone suggest places to buy used other than ebay? I deal with the monopoly because there are so few other sources but would love to look elsewhere. I do watch the local craigslist.

Robert

Rangefinderforum classifieds, apug classifieds, KEH used department.

Sirius Glass · Nov 30, 2009

Matthew Rusbarsky said:
Rangefinderforum classifieds, apug classifieds, KEH used department.

Yeh, what he said.

Steve

sangetsu · Dec 1, 2009

Awhile back I picked up a Russian Zorki 1 rangefinder camera. I saw it sitting in the "junk" bin (where I often find treasures) at a used camera shop. It was priced higher ($40) than the usual junk, but I thought it was an interesting camera. I found it to operate smoothly and quietly, and the lens which came with it seemed decent enough as well.

Unfortunately, it came with a bad shutter curtain, but I bought a shutter curtain assembly on Ebay for $6, and installed it myself. Once I got the camera together, I put a roll of film through it, and was surprised by the results. The pictures were every bit as good as those I get out of my Leica III. The Zorki is compact, and with it's Elmar-copy lens collapsed, I can carry it in a shirt pocket.

I now have a growing collection of these little cameras. Build quality varies greatly from camera to camera, some are jewels, and some are turds, but they are cheap, easy to use (and service), and I have a lot of fun with them.

Chaplain Jeff · Dec 5, 2009

Hello,

For that money, I wouldn't expect you'll find anything that doesn't need a CLA / Repair in the M series - which could up to double the price. Better check out the fixed lens or LTM bodies if you're truly limited to $500. Even if you find an M class body for that, you've still got to get a lens.

In the fixed-lens category, I'd recommend the Minolta 7sII. It's compact, A priority with a great meter and a lens that often gets mistaken (and some folks even claim it is) Leica glass (it's not).

In the LTM world, for $200-$300 you can get a Minolta 35 MOdel II and have it CLA'ed. Great brass bodied RF that takes all the LTM usual suspects, as well as the Rokkor lenses which are seriously underrated and hence much cheaper than their Canon / Leica counterparts.
An interesting quirk is that the Minoltas have "modern" film back doors on them - they're on a hinge like modern SLRs: much easier to open and load / unload on the fly.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

goamules · Dec 8, 2009

HiNDri said:
..., I wish I still had that IIIc. Wow! ... I probably have $300-$500 USD to spend. It would be nice if the camera had a functioning light meter...

Robert

I started shooting 35mm after about a 20 year hiatus with a Voigtlander Vitessa. Yeah, they have old selenium meters, but I never trusted it. It takes nice pics, but similar to you, I wanted to have a Leica.

I did what I often do; took a chance on OhBoy, and bought a Canon IVSB. It doesn't need a CLA or shutter work and cost $192 with a 1.8 lens. Why is it assumed that every camera will need work? Perhaps the person selling it just did a CLA a few years ago. People get the impression that a camera is bought in 1953 and put in the closet and never used again. Sometimes, but not always.

Other than not having a meter, I'd say bid on a Leica if that's what you want. If it's not working, sell it (stating what work it needs) and buy another. Or get just the body, and a cheaper lens at first. I'd wager you'd get a good one in a couple steps for your budget.

elekm · Dec 8, 2009

I always suggest that a person find out if a camera has been serviced. Nearly any camera that's 20 years old or older should be serviced, which might include everything from a major overhaul to something as minor as replacing foam seals or recalibrating the rangefinder.

There are several approaches to the possible purchase of Leica:

1) You want a Leica because you've always wanted one. In this case, buy the Leica. Don't buy something else. Don't waste your money. Buy the Leica and be done with it.

2) You want a Leica because you want to get into rangefinder photography. Buy something cheaper and see if you like using a rangefinder. If not, it hasn't cost you much. Or you could buy a Leica, and if you don't like it, you can resell it without losing too much money.

I would strongly urge against ever buying a beater -- no matter what brand it is. Don't buy someone's camera that's been abused. You might end up spending more money trying to restore it than you would buy buying one that's in good shape. Life's too short. Don't buy someone else's piece of beaten-up crap. There are a lot of cameras out there, and there's no reason to buy a junker.

Pumal · Dec 8, 2009

I do fine with a Minolta Hi-Matic 7s and a Yashica Lynx 14e IC

So I want a rangefinder

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