So Easy, A Caveman Could...

davetravis · Aug 5, 2007

Well, after 4 years on the art show circuit, someone finally asked me the ultimate ignoramaus question!
The following diaglog just happened today, and is accurate from the best of my recall:
Mother with 13 year old daughter looking through my print bin: "So all these wildflowers in the front of this mountain, You added these in PS by stitching them?"
Me: "No, this is real photography."
(Mature gentleman also in my booth hangs his head"
Mother: "The only reason I ask is that we have a Photoclub that uses PS to "stitch" together different parts of a nature scene and then print the photo."
Me: "That's fake photography."
(13 year old daughter hangs her head.)
Mother: "I guess, but who knows the difference?"
Me: "Anyone who cares."
Needless to say, I didn't make a sell, but I hope the 13 year old will think about the future of "real photography."
DT

MikeSeb · Aug 5, 2007

I understand your frustration Dave. I just hope you weren't too snarky, because from that the 13 yr old will mainly learn that artists are arrogant d**kheads.

I'm sensitive about this issue, because I was treated very rudely once at a photographer's booth at a major national art fair held here yearly. His work was excellent, and I intended to buy something--I was the only visitor in his booth at the time. I asked him a question about his technique (I have 35 yrs of photographic knowledge under my belt so I'm no newbie), expecting an enthusiastic response from him, as I'd have given to a customer of my work were the roles reversed--joy of discussion with a knowledgeable person, etc--but his reply was so condescending and arrogantly stated that I walked out cursing him under his breath. I took great satisfaction in seeing on a repeat pass by his booth that it was STILL empty and his walls were STILL full.

Maybe you missed a "teaching moment", when you could have gently enlightened the mom. Once aware of the superior value offered by your "real" images, you might even have made a sale.

Continued success in your endeavors.

Roger Hicks · Aug 6, 2007

I love the way they use 'stitch', implying some degree of craftsmanship. Given the subtlety with which so many Photoshoppers work, 'nail' might be a better word.

rwyoung · Aug 6, 2007

I don't think that was rude at all. She started it! And obviously doesn't care enough to know the difference. Nothing wrong with WELL EXECUTED and APPROPRIATE (and there is the word that will cause trouble) application of PS. But knowing and appreciating the difference between a silver print (or PT or PL or VDB or whatever) and an amaturish PS knock off is what will keep "analog" alive!

David Brown · Aug 6, 2007

Oh, you just have to ignore these people. And maybe laugh at them under your breath.

I've actually had people walk up to me while shooting, look at my Mamiya RB on the tripod, look down at the 3.4725 megadot thing hanging around their neck and walk off with an air of superiority. :confused:

I mean, puhleeeze ... I have a 6 megadot in my camera bag ... :rolleyes:

Lopaka · Aug 6, 2007

David Brown said:
I've actually had people walk up to me while shooting, look at my Mamiya RB on the tripod, look down at the 3.4725 megadot thing hanging around their neck and walk off with an air of superiority. :confused:

Yeah, and how often have you heard: "MY darkroom is in my den."?

Somehow that makes the finished product better???:rolleyes:

Bob

David Brown · Aug 6, 2007

Lopaka said:
Yeah, and how often have you heard: "MY darkroom is in my den."?

Somehow that makes the finished product better???:rolleyes:

Bob

Yeah!

Or, no.

I didn't mean to get into the analog-digi debate (and I don't think you did either, Bob), it's simply the snobbery from whatever source that always amuses me. And after years of being torked off, I have finally managed to react with amusement now. I got the same thing in the music business, where I used to hang around with a lot of church organists. They constantly debated the relative merits of different organ builders (not to mention the pipe/electronic [analog/digital?] debate) while never demonstrating that they themselves could actually play worth a darn.

But I do understand and sympathize with Dave Travis' frustration.

ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM

davetravis · Aug 6, 2007

MikeSeb said:
I understand your frustration Dave. I just hope you weren't too snarky, because from that the 13 yr old will mainly learn that artists are arrogant d**kheads.

I'm sensitive about this issue, because I was treated very rudely once at a photographer's booth at a major national art fair held here yearly. His work was excellent, and I intended to buy something--I was the only visitor in his booth at the time. I asked him a question about his technique (I have 35 yrs of photographic knowledge under my belt so I'm no newbie), expecting an enthusiastic response from him, as I'd have given to a customer of my work were the roles reversed--joy of discussion with a knowledgeable person, etc--but his reply was so condescending and arrogantly stated that I walked out cursing him under his breath. I took great satisfaction in seeing on a repeat pass by his booth that it was STILL empty and his walls were STILL full.

Maybe you missed a "teaching moment", when you could have gently enlightened the mom. Once aware of the superior value offered by your "real" images, you might even have made a sale.

Continued success in your endeavors.

Thanks Mike!
I understand your sensitivity, I've met a few like that.
The truth is, some artists on the show circuit are arrogant pompous asses, but most aren't.
I'm not even sure if I'm an "artist," I call myself a "professional camper."
Talking to hundreds of folks for 2 or 3 days, we can't be all things to all people.
Sometimes you just gotta tell it like it is, and roll with the flow.
In the spirit of the moment, all was lite-hearted, and humorous.
The mom took my card and wanted to know if I did workshops.
The daughter acted like a normal teenager, she blushed.
The mature gentleman, bought my largest piece off the wall.
Now off to Pueblo Lake and bass fishing!
DT

Daniel_OB · Aug 6, 2007

davetravis
Well, after 4 years on the art show circuit, someone finally asked me the ultimate ignoramaus question!
The following diaglog just happened today, and is accurate from the best of my recall:
Mother with 13 year old daughter looking through my print bin: "So all these wildflowers in the front of this mountain, You added these in PS by stitching them?"
Me: "No, this is real photography."
(Mature gentleman also in my booth hangs his head"
Mother: "The only reason I ask is that we have a Photoclub that uses PS to "stitch" together different parts of a nature scene and then print the photo..."

Typical for today image culture acting, and is incurable. What is to them difference between original Rembrandt and cheap print? None at all. To them no difference in just anything, not just photographs and dig** print.
I have the same problem as davetravis. But I have to accept that I must to learn how to recognize that two-legs creeping creatures or I am gone. It is very special method of market research today for professional photographers. Market for portrait photography looks large but it is not truth. One has to deal with “kind of people” and to make tight selection right at the door of the studio, or the place where to advertise the job. The point is, at this moment, to learn how to recognize one that does not belongs to that hordes of stupidoses for whom there is no difference just in anything. Human being becomes so fast the largest pollution on this “small” planet.
When I am sure it is one of them I find no tolerance, just get rid sh** off the tent or studio ASAP or stink can spread. Even what some potential customer told me is that he will skip photographer he knows he mix with just anybody. So many people knows what is going on today.
I go to large food market, once to cheap, next time to the most expensive. I analyze people at both and find a large difference. One going to walmart will never-ever deep into his pocket for a nice photograph. However if I say what I noticed I can pick jail…

It is all not nice by traditional dictionary, but again, if I am polite I am gone. Time changed and so I have to.

www.Leica-R.com

roteague · Aug 6, 2007

Reminds me that I, a dedicated film photographer, spent the entire day yesterday in front of the computer doing Photoshop and Lightroom (doing stuff for my website).

Chuck_P · Aug 6, 2007

Sounds to me that, at least with the 13 yr old kid, that it was an excellant opportunity to, hopefully, enlighten the kid about a different method of capturing flowers in a photograph.

Just like youth may represent the future economic stability of tobacco companies i.e., get them hooked so they will need to buy the product------- Todays youth, IMHO, play a huge role in the future of film; we need to get them hooked. A difficult endeavor to say the least.

Jadedoto · Aug 6, 2007

Chuck1 said:
Sounds to me that, at least with the 13 yr old kid, that it was an excellant opportunity to, hopefully, enlighten the kid about a different method of capturing flowers in a photograph.

Just like youth may represent the future economic stability of tobacco companies i.e., get them hooked so they will need to buy the product------- Todays youth, IMHO, play a huge role in the future of film; we need to get them hooked. A difficult endeavor to say the least.

Mhmm. You got me hooked! I try on my friends, but peer pressure lost it's power thanks to the PM commercials against it...

Lopaka · Aug 6, 2007

David Brown said:
I didn't mean to get into the analog-digi debate (and I don't think you did either, Bob), it's simply the snobbery from whatever source that always amuses me.

Right, David. I just find it amusing that to some folks convenience and quality are somehow connected. I won't get into the digi vs film debates because often both sides are wrong in their arguments anyway. I shoot what I shoot because I like it and as artist's choice it needs no more explanation.

Bob

copake_ham · Aug 6, 2007

Lopaka said:
Right, David. I just find it amusing that to some folks convenience and quality are somehow connected. I won't get into the digi vs film debates because often both sides are wrong in their arguments anyway. I shoot what I shoot because I like it and as artist's choice it needs no more explanation.

Bob

Last week I went to a Yankees game at the stadium.

For years, sitting on the wall between the home plate screen and the Yankees dugout at first base has been a small "Fujifilm" banner.

[Don't worry, it's still there!]

During the pre-game time, as is always the case, they do some charity honorifics where some sponsors gives a donation to some worthy cause - and, of course, some Yankee player makes the presentation and they take pics etc.

So, here it was, the night that Fujifilm was the sponsor making the charity presentation to some "arts for education" group and they took the pics etc.

And, yes, as you'd expect, the photog was using a digiSLR.

Now I know that Fuji is "eyebrows deep" into the digi world - but here the sponsor was its Fujifilm division!

Just once I hoped, though I knew better, perhaps they would have the pics taken with a film camera full of Fuji film!

Alas, that was not to be the case.

What do you do? What do you do? :confused:

Lopaka · Aug 7, 2007

George, Fuji is a large conglomerate into a lot ob businesses besides photography. The Fujifilm unit also makes the digi cameras. I don't care, particularly if sales of the digis help keep film alive.

Bob

snegron · Aug 7, 2007

Chuck1 said:
Sounds to me that, at least with the 13 yr old kid, that it was an excellant opportunity to, hopefully, enlighten the kid about a different method of capturing flowers in a photograph.

Just like youth may represent the future economic stability of tobacco companies i.e., get them hooked so they will need to buy the product------- Todays youth, IMHO, play a huge role in the future of film; we need to get them hooked. A difficult endeavor to say the least.

I agree, this was a great missed learning opportunity. What bugs me is that sometimes we are a bit too much on the defenssive because we assume some soccer mom is being a jerk to us by asking about a digital technique when it fact it was a film technique.

Cut the lady a break! After all, do you really think she spends any time in these forums? Maybe soccer mom didn't know any better. Maybe she just likes pretty pictures and recently discovered the art of photography (yes, digital is also photography). Maybe it was cheaper for soccer mom to get a cute little digital camera for under $200.00 and is able to print out pictures of her kids and things she likes. Maybe she can't afford to spend money on a darkroom or $15.00 for prints at the crappy corner drugstore developing every roll she shoots.

She was intrigued because she liked what she saw. I have heard that the best form of flattery is immitation. Maybe after explaining the work that goes into a print from film she might have been even more impressed and purchased the print.

Daniel_OB · Aug 9, 2007

Snegron
"She was intrigued because she liked what she saw. I have heard that the best form of flattery is immitation. Maybe after explaining the work that goes into a print from film she might have been even more impressed and purchased the print."

If one spend hours to explain what is a matter, the best can happen is that she says "wow" and to disapper. Mentality and way of thinking is in question. She probaly have some pictures on her walls, but if one ask her what is on that pictures, good chance is that she have no idea. Beleive me, rare are people today that are able to see the "difference". It is not in art only, is just in any our activity. I was present when top engineer in one automotive company is fired and his boss said he can get his replacement in just anyone passing the company's window. And he realy think so.

www.Leica-R.com

David Brown · Aug 9, 2007

Daniel_OB said:
I was present when top engineer in one automotive company is fired and his boss said he can get his replacement in just anyone passing the company's window. And he realy think so.

He might "think so", but it doesn't make it true.

Daniel_OB · Aug 9, 2007

David
He might "think so", but it doesn't make it true.

I agree, but it the problem.
So what is now behind? The same company got the business from Chrysler and sucess is attached to that boss, and now many more think he is "always" right. But what happened is: the Chrysler want to have more competitors for suppliers so it will drive the price down. If Chrisler gave the business to someone else that company is down for forever... How they will get job done is different story. So now, true or not, who care. No differnce. It is whole system in one wheel, it is a way of thinking. Incurable. Art, medicine, engineering, mechanics, bakers, computers,... same everywhere. Hat down, there are still that other kind of people that use their own brain and inteligence, but not many.

davetravis · Aug 11, 2007

If one spend hours to explain what is a matter, the best can happen is that she says "wow" and to disapper.

D_OB,
Sometimes, very true!
Over the years I've gotten pretty good at determining who is truly interested in buying, who wants to "pick my brain," who has a chip on their shoulder, and who is just wasting an afternoon at an art show.
You see, we're under no obligation to explain anything.
But since you never know what the public's intentions are, you have to be tackfull and professional.
DT

So Easy, A Caveman Could...

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