Snow on Ilford FP4+ 120

[Stéphane MENARD]

Hello,
I developped and 120 Ilford FP4+ exposed at 200 ISO on Xtol.
I noticed a snow like effects on photos , mostely on the beginning of the film.
The lot number of the film is 4553
Do you have a idea of this issue ? Film default?
Attached the scan image
Regards
Stéphane

 

[mpirie]

Stephane, we need to know how out of date the film is and how it's been stored since purchase.

It looks like the backing paper problems that have been reported on this (and other) forums.

Mike

 

[AgX]

No, it does not look like the classic problem at all.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Stéphane,

Have you processed other rolls recently without problems, is this on a single roll of film?

Tom

 

[Ian C]

Fine white spots in the positive are the result of fine opaque particles in the negative, most likely embedded into the gelatin emulsion. There are many possible causes, such as minute particles that can be found in nearly all municipal water supplies. These can come from the rust on the inside of underground steel water supply lines, as well as chemical reactions between dissolved minerals in the water and the water pipe and non-harmful bacteria feeding on metals used in water lines.

The following is one of many links found on Google in response to the search string, “black slime in water pipes.”

https://www.atsenvironmental.com/residential/water/contaminants/list/manganese/

https://www.rotorooter.com/frequent...-is-the-black-stuff-that-comes-out-of-faucet/

It is particles such as these that can get into film emulsions during processing. It is for this reason that commercial film processors use frequently-changed water filters on the supply lines to their processors. It was common practice to use a 25-30 micron coarse filter followed by a 5 micron fine filter to remove particles in the water supply in commercial film processing.

Other possible sources of particles might be in used fixer, which can accumulate particles of silver salts from film fixing. In time these salts can reduce to silver metal or other compounds in solid particle form. For this reason, some users filter their fixers between successive uses to remove particles that might have accumulated in use. Coffee filters are often employed in home-based darkrooms for this purpose.

Particle problems can also occur in developers that are not mixed in accordance with the maker’s instructions. One way this can happen is by mixing the powder components into water that is significantly lower in temperature than specified by the developer maker. Some of the material then fails to dissolve into solution, leaving tiny undissolved particles floating about in the improperly-mixed developer. This problem is usually limited to powdered developers. Liquid-concentrate developers are already in solution to begin with, so the mixing temperature isn’t nearly as critical.

The example shown does not look like backing-paper mottle, the interaction of humidified backing paper with the emulsion of the film.

 

[grain elevator]

Particle problems can also occur in developers that are not mixed in accordance with the maker’s instructions. One way this can happen is by mixing the powder components into water that is significantly lower in temperature than specified by the developer maker. Some of the material then fails to dissolve into solution, leaving tiny undissolved particles floating about in the improperly-mixed developer. This problem is usually limited to powdered developers. Liquid-concentrate developers are already in solution to begin with, so the mixing temperature isn’t nearly as critical.

I have a roll with similar spots from Xtol (actually Fomadon Excel, which is reported to be the same as Xtol) which I had freshly mixed. When I checked the remaining stock solution, I saw there was still undissolved powder in it. So if you had freshly mixed the Xtol, that could very well be it. In my case the particles in my stock solution still dissolved over the next days.

 

[Stéphane MENARD]

Stephane, we need to know how out of date the film is and how it's been stored since purchase.

It looks like the backing paper problems that have been reported on this (and other) forums.

Mike

Hello like, i didn't kepp the pakage, but I'm sure the fim was not out off date. I was stoed in the fridge before to be used and at room temperature after exposed.

 

[Stéphane MENARD]

Stéphane,

Have you processed other rolls recently without problems, is this on a single roll of film?

Tom

Hello Tom, Yes I processed other film recnetly with the same developper and fixer batch and it 's the first time I have this problem

 

[Stéphane MENARD]

I have a roll with similar spots from Xtol (actually Fomadon Excel, which is reported to be the same as Xtol) which I had freshly mixed. When I checked the remaining stock solution, I saw there was still undissolved powder in it. So if you had freshly mixed the Xtol, that could very well be it. In my case the particles in my stock solution still dissolved over the next days.

Hello, no it's not freshly mixed Xtol solution, I have developped already 6 rolls with the solution, without problem.

 

[Stéphane MENARD]

Fine white spots in the positive are the result of fine opaque particles in the negative, most likely embedded into the gelatin emulsion. There are many possible causes, such as minute particles that can be found in nearly all municipal water supplies. These can come from the rust on the inside of underground steel water supply lines, as well as chemical reactions between dissolved minerals in the water and the water pipe and non-harmful bacteria feeding on metals used in water lines.

The following is one of many links found on Google in response to the search string, “black slime in water pipes.”

https://www.atsenvironmental.com/residential/water/contaminants/list/manganese/

https://www.rotorooter.com/frequent...-is-the-black-stuff-that-comes-out-of-faucet/

It is particles such as these that can get into film emulsions during processing. It is for this reason that commercial film processors use frequently-changed water filters on the supply lines to their processors. It was common practice to use a 25-30 micron coarse filter followed by a 5 micron fine filter to remove particles in the water supply in commercial film processing.

Other possible sources of particles might be in used fixer, which can accumulate particles of silver salts from film fixing. In time these salts can reduce to silver metal or other compounds in solid particle form. For this reason, some users filter their fixers between successive uses to remove particles that might have accumulated in use. Coffee filters are often employed in home-based darkrooms for this purpose.

Particle problems can also occur in developers that are not mixed in accordance with the maker’s instructions. One way this can happen is by mixing the powder components into water that is significantly lower in temperature than specified by the developer maker. Some of the material then fails to dissolve into solution, leaving tiny undissolved particles floating about in the improperly-mixed developer. This problem is usually limited to powdered developers. Liquid-concentrate developers are already in solution to begin with, so the mixing temperature isn’t nearly as critical.

The example shown does not look like backing-paper mottle, the interaction of humidified backing paper with the emulsion of the film.

Hello Ian, I will check my fixer and will filter it. By it's the fiste time have this problem with my chemicals. I use demineralized water to rince the film for the last bath.

 

[Stéphane MENARD]

Hello Ian, I will check my fixer and will filter it. By it's the fiste time have this problem with my chemicals. I use demineralized water to rince the film for the last bath.

I have just filterd the fixer, What I can say, it was clear and were was not argentic trace on the paper filter

 

[calico]

Hello,
I developped and 120 Ilford FP4+ exposed at 200 ISO on Xtol.
I noticed a snow like effects on photos , mostely on the beginning of the film.
The lot number of the film is 4553
Do you have a idea of this issue ? Film default?
Attached the scan image
Regards
Stéphane View attachment 239687

Hello Stéphane. I just joined this forum and saw your post from this past February. I had the same problem with 120 FP4 and was in touch with tech department at Ilford a few months ago. Sent them scans to show problem. As you saw, the spots are in the emulsion, look dark grey in negative and whitish in scan or print. They admitted it is a known problem on their end. Here is a link from their site from March where they address the issue:

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/statement-120-roll-film/

The problem occurs on their 120 films only and especially the slower-speed ones. They say it is more likely to happen with film that has been exposed to humidity or extreme temperatures. Or is expired. My film was never in extreme conditions, but I did use expired 120 FP4 which is when I would experience the problem.

Ilford will give you replacement film for rolls where you have experienced this. Not much consolation for ruined work.

I have stopped using expired FP4 and have not had the problem so far.

Best regards.