smallest printmaking solution volume

BetterSense · Apr 10, 2016

Because my facilities are limited, I'm considering going to one-shot chemistry for prints.

Since I usually make 5x7 prints on RC paper, I am considering getting 5x7 trays (I have 8x10 now) and mixing up smaller volumes of chemistry from liquid developed and fixer. This would make one-shot use more economical, but would be easier to handle even if I decided to reuse because of the smaller bottles needed.

Does anyone do similar downsizing? What is your solution volume? I'm wondering if I could get as low as 200ml or so, but I don't want to run into issues with developer exhaustion or incomplete fixing. I might use 2-bath fixing.

frank · Apr 10, 2016

Only my developer is one shot. Stop bath is indicator-type, and fixer is tested with a drop of testing liquid. When making 8x10's I can use as little as 600m totall (mixed 1;9). If you use less, you can't make as many prints.

MattKing · Apr 10, 2016

Have you considered using print tubes. You can do two 5x7s on a single 8x10 sheet, using 100 ml of chemistry at a time. And then re-use that chemistry a couple of times (check the manufacturer's capacity recommendations).

I did a few prints the other day with just 300 ml of developer, stop bath and fixer. I have several varieties of tubes, but the Cibachrome ones are my favourite.

For developer, I use Kodak Polymax T. For fixer, either Kodak or Ilford Rapid Fixer. A one litre bottle of either gives me ten litres of working solution.

The Polymax T concentrate is very long lasting.

Gerald C Koch · Apr 10, 2016

Just use your 8X10 trays. You can save partially used print developer if you do another print session within a day maybe more. The developer will "tell" you when to discard it. Just bottle it up after the first use. Do not exceed the total number of prints specified by the developer manufacturer. Many people also use a floating lid to keep air away from developer when not in use. You can also use something like Saran wrap to cover the tray. Commercial labs don't discard their developer each night. BTW Ethol LPD is designed to be replenished.

frank · Apr 10, 2016

You can float an empty tray on the developer tray to reduce oxidation if you plan to print the next day, but really, developer isn't that expensive. I just mix a new batch.

BetterSense · Apr 11, 2016

I save my developer (Dektol) and fixer (2-bath rapidfixer) now. But because I sometimes go weeks between printing sessions, and I only print maybe 10 5x7 prints each time, the set-up and cleaning time starts to encroach. I already went from Xtol and D23 to HC110 for film and it was a good move...a bottle of HC110 takes up very little space in my Tupperware storage container and it never goes bad. I don't have gallon jugs of Xtol to juggle anymore. I'm interested in doing the same for prints and stopping the storage of working solutions altogether. I bought some polymax T developer but it's a only going to be economical if I minimize the amount of syrup I use for each session. Same with fixer. If i get down to just bottles of concentrate, then I can store all my chemicals in a smaller Tupperware container and not worry about anything getting old if I have to take a break due to travel. My thought was flat bottom 5x7 trays and the smallest most dilute batches of polymax and ilford rapid fix possible, either by diluting more than 10:1, or using smaller volumes, or both. If the batches only have capacity for say 6 or 8 prints that might be fine and I can just mix larger batches or mix more in the middle of a session if it get "long".

The tubes suggestion wa interesting. I have never tried that.

MattKing · Apr 11, 2016

Here is the link to the datasheet for Polymax T: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j5/j5.pdf

The capacity numbers of 32 8x10 sheets per litre of 1 +9 working solution means about about 32 5x7s from a conveniently sized half litre of working solution in a 5x7 tray. One bottle of Polymax T will give you 20 such sessions. That works out to being pretty economical.

I've had success storing working solution Polymax T for a couple of days, but generally I only bottle it to keep it if I am planning to resume the session the next day.

Kodak's data sheet claims a two month life for a half filled bottle of concentrate. I've got much, much more than that from it.

BetterSense · Apr 11, 2016

According to the Kodak data sheet for polymax T, it has a capacity of 150 8x10 prints per gallon. Assuming a 5x7 print is half the size, thats 300 prints per gallon, or 20 prints per 250ml regular strength working solution (25ml of syrup, 29 cents). I suppose i could dilute a bit more to get a tad more solution volume, too. That's enough for most of my printing sessions.

Ilford list the unreplenished capacity of their rapid fixer as 80 prints per liter (20 per 250ml) when used at 1:9 (25ml fixer, 29 cents). That's about twice what I would ever print in a session, so I could either absorb the excess capacity for safety margin, or mix up even diluter than 1:9, perhaps 1:15 or something.

The next thing to explore is whether it's practical to develop 5x7 prints in 250ml of solution.

MattKing · Apr 11, 2016

Don't over-dilute - especially with fixer. By the way, the data sheet says 120 8 x 10 prints per gallon or 32 8 x 10 prints per litre.

The working solution fixer keeps well. The developer working solution, not so well.

gijsbert · Apr 11, 2016

I have a tiny darkroom (well, closet really) and started doing 5x7 in 5x7 trays with 450ml solution, and it was easy to get the RC sheets submerged so using less is possible, but got to watch the capacity. I also do drum development, which uses very little chemistry (<100ml for 8x10), but using trays is more fun and faster.
I used the same 450ml this weekend to develop 11x14 and one 16x20 RC prints in drums, it's great to be able to do a larger print once in a while without all the space and chemicals!
Let us know if 250ml worked for you.
Cheers.

Ian Grant · Apr 12, 2016

I've been printing quite a few 7"x5" prints recently, you need a tray larger like a 10"x8" to get even processing and also to move the prints around in the fixer.

Ian

nworth · Apr 14, 2016

I some times use 6X9 trays (made for kitchen storage) to process 5X7 prints. I generally use 500 ml of solution but I could probably get away with a bit less. I haven't had any problems with uneven processing, but I am careful about continuous agitation. Watch out for solution capacity. Kodak lists 100 8X10 sheets per gallon as the capacity for Dektol 1+2; that equates to about 25 - 5X7 sheets per half liter - which may be optimistic. It should still be adequate for the average darkroom session.

tkamiya · Apr 17, 2016

Only chemical I use one shot is developer. I reuse stop bath and fixer. (year, I know.... stop bath re-use.... it works for me)

Even liquid developers, once I open the bottle, the life of concentrate is 6 months as I recall. I've had one stay good as long as 16 months or so but that was about it. I solved this problem by mixing from scratch using raw ingredients. I just mix what I think I need in foreseeable future.

As far as liquid volume is concerned, I usually have 0.5" or so of liquid from bottom of tray. Anything less, keeping paper immersed become difficult. With that much, I can rock the tray and get it done. For fixer, since I re-use them, I have more than that in a tray.

Smaller tray seem a good idea. I'd go for that.... if that's what you mainly use. Smallest I have is 8x10 in my darkroom because that's my usual small size. I do 5x7 rarely, so to me, it doesn't make sense to get yet, another set of trays.

mdarnton · Apr 17, 2016

In this case, another vote for drums, like Unicolor, Beseler, etc. Tiny developer quantities used one shot, and fixer just poured back into the main jar, minimum shelf space, minimal dark required. Lots of advantages, once you hone in your exposure skills. for B&W you don't need the motor base, so you only need to spend $15 or so. Develop one final print, and the next test, at the same time.

Jim Jones · Apr 17, 2016

I've used trays with curved bottoms when making a very few negatives or prints with a minimum of developer. About 1.5 ounce will provide even development of a 8x10 negative or print. The necessary constant agitation will likely oxidize the developer faster than other procedures.

RobC · Apr 17, 2016

I would consider using Ansco 130 print developer. Its tray life, unlike most print developers is very long so you can pour it back into a bottle and reuse it days later. Also I have read that LPD developer last a long time in working solution. Both have high capacity.
A routine of just topping up working solution with a little fresh stock seems to work well for several people.
Search the forum, you will find plenty of good advice. Not the cheapest to buy but the high capacity and tray life of working solution should make it cheaper than most other developers.
Note that glycin does not keep well when in powered form so don't buy raw glycin unless you're prepared to freeze it.

BetterSense · Mar 13, 2017

Update:

I found some kitchen trays that nest together and fit 5x7 prints with flat bottoms. Using 230ml of solution with them is no problem.

I am putting Polymax T and Ilford Rapid Fixer concentrate in 20ml (actually 23ml to the brim) scintillation vials ahead of time. I use 1 vial of developer and 1 vial of fixer per session, with water to 230ml. The total cost per session is $0.49. I use a dash of vinegar for stop bath and I count that as free since I steal it from the laundry room. The stated capacity for the developer is 17 sheets and the fixer is 40.

I dump everything at the end of each session and have no need for storage bottles. I also don't need to keep or rinse any measuring beakers. When I print 8x10 I just double everything.

Ronald Moravec · Mar 15, 2017

frank said:
You can float an empty tray on the developer tray to reduce oxidation if you plan to print the next day, but really, developer isn't that expensive. I just mix a new batch.

Developer life is 8 hours at working strength even if you do not make any prints. It may seem to work, but the tones will all be off and you can not fix it

Put a small wedge under the 8x10 tray so all solutions go to one end. Use a flat bottom tray, not a ribbed one.

nworth · Mar 25, 2017

Using smaller trays for 5X7 prints makes a lot of sense. I found some Rubbermaid 6X8 trays at the hardware store that are ideal. They use half the solution volume of 8X10 trays and take up far less sink space. I usually process in trays using fresh solutions, and I discard the solutions at the end of the session. The amount of developer you really need depends on the developer. Most have a capacity of about 100 8X10 sheets per gallon. That works out to about 20 ml per 5X7 print. In practice, I've found capacities to be a bit less. Warm tone developers often have less capacity than cold tone, because they have a lower concentration of developing agent. You can develop two 5X7 prints at a time in a Beseler rotary tube (and in many other brands). Beseler recommends using 60 ml of developer (as a one-shot) for this, and that amount seems about right for most work.

Sirius Glass · Mar 25, 2017

I find that sometimes the developer will last for a short time the next day. So I will do a test print but I expect to dump the developer and start free on the next day.

mshchem · Mar 26, 2017

BetterSense said:
Update:

I found some kitchen trays that nest together and fit 5x7 prints with flat bottoms. Using 230ml of solution with them is no problem.

I am putting Polymax T and Ilford Rapid Fixer concentrate in 20ml (actually 23ml to the brim) scintillation vials ahead of time. I use 1 vial of developer and 1 vial of fixer per session, with water to 230ml. The total cost per session is $0.49. I use a dash of vinegar for stop bath and I count that as free since I steal it from the laundry room. The stated capacity for the developer is 17 sheets and the fixer is 40.

I dump everything at the end of each session and have no need for storage bottles. I also don't need to keep or rinse any measuring beakers. When I print 8x10 I just double everything.

This is genius, perfect answer. One thing to look for is a small Stainless steel rocking print tray from the 70's. Nikor made one and another one was a Mitchell "Color Canoe" make up your 8 ounces of each. Pour it into the tray and rock it back and forth, has a handy pour hole to empty. I have some little 5x7 Paterson trays 8 ounces should be plenty.

Harry Stevens · Mar 26, 2017

I use one tray system a 10ml of developer mixed to a 100ml in a flat bottomed £1.00 cat litter tray and easily get 4 8x10 prints out of it, I just use stop bath to cover the print and use again for the other prints and then it's dumped after 4 or 5 prints like the developer,the fixer comes out of my made up bottle of (paper dilution) fixer and is saved. Doing 3-5 prints at night is more than enough for me.

I tried the conventional methods but the 500/1000 ml diluted paper developer gave up the ghost next day and was so wasteful.

Cholentpot · Mar 26, 2017

500ml of developer for me. I reuse the stop and fix. I did a run last week of about 20 prints without a problem.

BetterSense · Mar 26, 2017

Even better, I got these trays from Amazon to hold my vials of paper developer, fixer, Rodinal, and HC110. Now I never have to measure anything, and the chemicals last forever in the glass vials.

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