Small rant re a Nikon from KEH

Dan Fromm · Mar 13, 2006

So I decided to get me a nice used N8008S.

So I ordered one from KEH. Paid a slight premium for an "EX" one.

So it came. Serial number 3105752.

So I put batteries in it, mounted an AIS lens, and turned it on. Did as the instruction book said, set mode to M. Asked the camera what it thought. It told me that it was set to M, no compensation, shutter speed 1/250, aperture F--. So I swapped lenses. Same news from the camera. DUD!

So I sent it back after consulting with KEH.

So nothing happened for a while.

So I bugged 'em. They told me that processing exchanges took time and that a replacement body was on hold for me.

So nothing happened for a while more.

So I bugged 'em. Same story.

Same story.

So I bugged 'em. Hard. Turns out they hadn't sent the replacement because they'd given me a refund for the dud. And they hadn't told me what they'd done.

So I checked my account, the refund had been made. So I paid again.

The replacement camera arrived today. Serial number 3105752. Yes, the very camera that didn't work first try. It still displays F-- with an AI or AIS lens mounted.

I don't give an obscenity whether N8008S # 3105752 works with a chipped AF lens. I bought the body to use with my MF lenses, all AI'd, AI, or AIS, and don't have any AF Nikkors.

!!!!!!!!!!! Perhaps FFFFFFFFFFFFFF! would be more appropriate.

Has anyone here had similar poor communication and flat-out incompetence from KEH?

sillyconguru · Mar 13, 2006

Is the LCD supposed to show the lens' aperture when an AI/AI-S lens is attached? I didn't think it did.

BradS · Mar 13, 2006

Hmmm, I don't know if it is the same but...I have a Nikon FA that displays something unintelligible (like F--) untill, a roll of film is in place **AND** wound to the first frame. A careful reading of my instruction book even says this is what it is supposed to do...again, I do not have an 8008 so, not sure if this is even related.

Brad.

PS I've bought a bunch of stuff from KEH. Was even desperate enough to sell some stuff to them once. Never had any troubles. Only once, maybe twice, asked for a return and refund.

Silverpixels5 · Mar 13, 2006

I've had nothing but good dealings with KEH. I frequently buy 'bargin' items which arrive in 'excellent' condition.

Ryuji · Mar 13, 2006

Silverpixels5 said:
I've had nothing but good dealings with KEH. I frequently buy 'bargin' items which arrive in 'excellent' condition.

That used to be my experience in late 1990s but my average experience with KEH has gone downhill. They also sent me a completely wrecked Mamiya 6, which had several problems I could detect before putting in a battery. It was as if I bought the camera on ebay!

ras351 · Mar 13, 2006

Take this with a grain of salt as I don't have experience with the 8008 however I doubt there is any way for the camera body to determine the aperture from the lens without a chip or some sort of maximum aperture info and analog feedback decoder. My Pentax 645 and 67 act the same although the latter has been modified to guess if I tell the body the maximum aperture of the lens currently on the camera. Your camera should still meter correctly if it is compatible with the attached lens - Set it to aperture priority and twiddle the aperture to see if the shutter speed changes. You should also be getting some over/under exposure indication on manual settings. If not then it is quite possible you have a dud which is where 'customer service' gets tested.

Roger.

jeffneedham · Mar 13, 2006

ouch.

Dan Fromm · Mar 13, 2006

sillyconguru, BradS, and ras351, thanks for the helpful suggestions.

According to the N8008S instruction book, the LCD and in-finder display are supposed to show the aperture set when an AI lens is mounted. There's even an illustration in the book showing an N8008S's LCD behaving as expected with an AIS lens mounted, i.e., displaying the aperture set. I got the manual first, bought an N8008S because it is supposed to work with manual focus lenses.

As for the camera not indicating anything without film being loaded, the thought occurred to me the first time it arrived. So I sacrificed a roll of outdated film. It behaved incorrectly with film loaded too. So much for that.

This seems to be a known problem. Before I concluded that I really did have a dud camera, I did some searching. In a thread on photo.net, there was the news that the problem is due to a broken trace somewhere inside the camera.

sliverpixels5, this is my first misadventure with KEH. Until now they've delivered my purchases in good order, and timely. I don't know why they're punishing me.

I'm galled by KEH's slow turnaround, poor communications, and failure to check that the camera operated as I reported in the letter I packed with it when I sent it back. And at this point I'm feeling trapped. I bought it in plenty of time to test it before taking it, or not taking it, on vacation. I depart 3/25. I hate using untested gear, and for me testing requires shooting a roll of reversal film. And more. As is, the safe thing to do is not take the next one, even if it comes before we go and seems to work, and try to make do with a camera that couldn't do the necessary -- max flash sync speed too low -- the last time I tried to shoot hummingbirds with flash at South Llano River SP.

waynecrider · Mar 13, 2006

I owned a 8008S and have the lens compatability chart in front of me. The camera is only compatible in aperture priority and manual, centerweighted or spot metering. If you've tried this, I guess it locks up noteing Fee? Can you borrow a AF lens and check to see if it works otherwise?

I remember hearing that the N90 was a better body then the 8008s. Maybe you would have better luck. Btw, there's always a 8008s or N90 in the classifieds at Photonet.

mgb74 · Mar 13, 2006

I had and enjoyed the 8008s. Currently have a N90s. I really like the N90s, except for it's bulk. I prefer the N90s over the N90 (no S) if, for no other reason, it uses AA batteries.

ras351 · Mar 13, 2006

Hi Dan,

Could you check here and see how it compares to your manual? This suggests that you will get the F-- display whenever you use a non-CPU lens and then only manual and aperture priority modes are supported.

Roger.

MattCarey · Mar 13, 2006

mgb74 said:
I had and enjoyed the 8008s. Currently have a N90s. I really like the N90s, except for it's bulk. I prefer the N90s over the N90 (no S) if, for no other reason, it uses AA batteries.

My N90 (no s) takes AA batteries.

Matt

mgb74 · Mar 14, 2006

MattCarey said:
My N90 (no s) takes AA batteries.

Matt

I apologize for the error. I was relying on information here (Dead Link Removed) and what I thought I read in another site.

Paul_Baker · Mar 14, 2006

Dan, please see page 67 of your manual. If the lens does not have a chip, it cannot display the aperture on the LCD. I use all manner of AI and AIS lenses on my F5 and the f-- shows in the display. This does not excuse the behavior of the company, however.

Dan Fromm · Mar 14, 2006

Thanks for all the replies.

Paul, did you mean page 76? There's nothing in the lens compatibility chart that seems relevant. Elsewhere in the manual it says that when a non-AF lens is mounted only M or A mode can be selected. The camera agrees with that. Perhaps the F5 behaves differently, but without having an F5 manual in hand I have to suspect that yours has a problem. I mean, full information in the viewfinder means just that. And there has to be a reason why the N8008S has an aperture coupling ring as well as all those contacts for communicating with chipped lenses. I believe the F5 has both too.

Roger, thanks for the link. I've reread it -- Adobe's search doesn't seem to work in that manual -- and can't find "F - -" or any indication that MF lenses won't communicate with the electronics that run the display.

Perhaps I'm mistaken about what the camera should do. And I see that I was mistaken on one point; all of the illustrations that show a lens at all seem to show an AF lens. But I find it hard to believe that a relatively advanced SLR can have an exposure system that doesn't indicate which aperture it thinks has been selected. "Trust me" is hard to believe. "Look at the lens, you idiot" seems archaic.

Thanks again,

Dan

dolande · Mar 14, 2006

I bought a bargain F3 with 50 f/1.4. It worked fine but I didnt like the esthetics. Send it back for a refund (no problem here) and waited for an exc one plus an 85mm f/2.0. Both beautiful. All this happened this year. It was my first experience with KEH and a very good one.

Denis P. · Mar 14, 2006

Dan,

Dan Fromm said:
Perhaps I'm mistaken about what the camera should do. And I see that I was mistaken on one point; all of the illustrations that show a lens at all seem to show an AF lens. But I find it hard to believe that a relatively advanced SLR can have an exposure system that doesn't indicate which aperture it thinks has been selected. "Trust me" is hard to believe. "Look at the lens, you idiot" seems archaic.

Thanks again,

Dan

AFAIK, the camera works as expected (no indication of aperture in the display with MF lenses). I'm getting ready to buy the same camera (N8008s/F801s) next month, and I'll be getting it specifically for the purpose of using it with manual AI/S lenses.

The camera works just fine with those, but it seems that it DOES NOT provide aperture info in the display. You have to set the f-stop on the lens yourself, and use the camera either in the program mode, or in A (aperture priority) mode. Manual mode will also work.

p. 44 of N8008s manual states:
"For lenses without a built-in CPU, "F---" appears where the aperture value is shown in the LCD panel and viewfinder"

E.g. manual (AI/S) lenses do not have a built-in CPU - ergo, "F---" is displayed instead of f-stop info. The camera should work as intended, though.

So, yes - it's a bit archaic, since you indeed have to "look at the lens" to see the f-stop.

But, it's the cheapest AF body which can use (almost) the full potential of manual AI lenses. F4 is the only better one, since it allows the use of matrix metering. F801s (i.e. N8008s in USA) uses center-weighted and spot metering with manual lenses. If you have a "plain" N8008 (without "s" designation), it does not have spot metering at all.

For more info about Nikon camera bodies, I heartily recommend "Pictorial history of Nikon cameras" site:
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/htmls/models/index.htm

Denis

Dan Fromm · Mar 14, 2006

Denis,

Thanks very much for the reply. While you were replying, I was rereading again and found the text you quoted to me.

Aaargh! What an idiot I've been! Read poorly, abused an innocent vendor, bothered other people for no good reason. I'm covered with shame. All here, please accept my apologies for idiocy and foolishness above and beyond ...

Denis, I contemplated this purchase for a couple of years. Visited the photography in Malaysia site, downloaded manuals, read them too I thought. Requirements were: 1/250 flash sync, interchangeable screens, auto-TTL flash. Plausible candidates were FM2, FM3A, N8008S/F801S, N90S/F90X. N8008S won because of features and price; nice camera, not too heavy, especially if one doesn't need AF. FM2 and FM3A lost because of price, N90S because of price, size, and weight. Rats rats rats.

Thanks to all who responded, also abject apologies for spreading misinformation and wasting your time,

Dan

Paul_Baker · Mar 14, 2006

But you don't have to look at the lens to get the aperture, that is what the little window that allows you to see through to the aperture ring is for (the ADR, I believe it is called).

paul ron · Mar 14, 2006

I have never had any problems with KEH but I guess they do get alot of business and probably screw up as any big business might, maybe a new sales person?

Next time you order, call Jeannie Cox at 404 748-6041 and explain your probelms to her, she is very well informed about the equipemnt and will take you through the process without any embarrasments. It's always understandable noobs or new equipment can present to users. She is one of the most competant people there and will do her best to make customers happy. Tell her I said hello.

Dan Fromm · Mar 14, 2006

Paul_Baker said:
But you don't have to look at the lens to get the aperture, that is what the little window that allows you to see through to the aperture ring is for (the ADR, I believe it is called).

Paul, my FM2n has the ADR window. The N8008S -- it is in front of me now -- doesn't have a window under the front of the prism, it has one on the top of the front of the prism. The window that's there illuminates the viewfinder display. If only Nikon would be consistent.

Paul_Baker · Mar 14, 2006

Now that's unfortunate. That little window is so useful in determining the aperture without removing your eye from the viewfinder! I hope you have better luck with KEH next time, I have ordered many things from them and haven't had any problems.

Small rant re a Nikon from KEH

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